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> Dodge Skill Is Worthless
Zen Shooter01
post Oct 23 2005, 02:03 PM
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Pg. 151 of the BBB states the Gymnastics skill may be substituted for Dodge. So why take Dodge, which is good only for dodging, when you can take Gymnastics, which is good not only for dodging, but jumping, tumbling, and other tricks?

Am I the first to notice this?
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LoseAsDirected
post Oct 23 2005, 02:10 PM
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Good catch. No idea what the official ruling on that would be, but here's my take on it.

You can take a specialization with the Dodge skill and get bonus dice, but there is no Dodge specialization for Gymnastics. Though I suppose if you specialized in 'Tumbling' and 'Tumbled' as part of your Gymnastic dodge it'd work the same way.

And I think this was part of the rules in SR3, but you have to have ample room to use Gymnastics. This is, apparently, not true of Dodge.

All in all, it is a fair question. Anyone else have a take on it?
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Earthwalker
post Oct 23 2005, 02:24 PM
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I also thought that Gymnastics only works for dodging ranged combat.

Of course if you get a good melee skill the point stands why get dodge when you can get Gymnastics.
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Synner
post Oct 23 2005, 02:25 PM
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I think this has been visited before. Yep, see here.
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Dogsoup
post Oct 23 2005, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Earthwalker)
Of course if you get a good melee skill the point stands why get dodge when you can get Gymnastics.

On the other hand only Dodge is really relevant in melee full defense: Why roll AGI+Dodge+Melee skill when you can just have a high dodge rating and roll AGI+[Dodge*2].
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Squinky
post Oct 23 2005, 07:57 PM
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Its cheaper to get imp abiltiy for and there are supporting bioware like synthacardium, and enh articulation that helps gymnastics....

I still see no reason beyond roleplaying (not every body wants to be a circus performer) not to just go gymnastics....
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snowRaven
post Oct 23 2005, 08:03 PM
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Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

Of course, most of the time Gymnastics is the 'better' choice, but not always.
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Cain
post Oct 23 2005, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

That's the question, though-- what might those be? I can't see any exceptions in the nBBB.
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Squinky
post Oct 23 2005, 08:26 PM
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Anytime you have the ability to move around enough to dodge, you should have enough room to "dodge" with gymnastics...

Unless there is something in the rules stating otherwise...

There are more instances when gymnastics would be used, as compared to doge, it would be useful outside of combat...
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2005, 08:39 PM
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If you purchase dodge, you don't need to purchase Unarmed Combat or Gymnastics. Of course, if you already have unarmed combat, then any points you spend in Dodge would be better spent on Gymnastics, as that would also allow you to ninja flip out of windows. And if you already have Gymnastics, any points spent on Dodge are better spent on Unarmed Combat, which would also let you axe-kick people in the crotch.

In short, if your character has either Gymnastics or Unarmed Combat, don't get dodge. If you are real sure that you intend to get neither of those skills, Dodge may be the right choice for you.

Although... how many Shadowrunners don't have Athletics?

-Frank
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Eyeless Blond
post Oct 23 2005, 08:45 PM
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Well mine doesn't, but then I'm trying to convert a lightly-cybered decker/shaman, which is to say I have no BP to spend on mere trivialities like physical attributes or skills. :P

But for everyone else, I agree.
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Squinky
post Oct 23 2005, 08:47 PM
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Frank summed up everything I intend to do in SR4: Ninja flip out windows and Axe kick to the crotch.

That my friend, is REAL ULTIMATE POWER!:
http://www.realultimatepower.net/
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snowRaven
post Oct 23 2005, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
That my friend, is REAL ULTIMATE POWER!:
http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Oh god...not again... :rotfl:
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snowRaven
post Oct 23 2005, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 23 2005, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.

That's the question, though-- what might those be? I can't see any exceptions in the nBBB.

There is one notable exception, and that is in when defending in melee combat.

You may use either your weapon skill to parry (assuming you are holding the weapon), your unarmed skill to block, or your dodge skill to dodge.

Now, if we start by taking for granted that you do not have a weapon, these are the reasons to use dodge instead of unarmed combat.
a) you lack the unarmed combat skill, as Frank pointed out.
b) your attacked with a weapon that inflicts damage on contact.

Now, granted, I'm not sure if the SR4 rules really reflect the fact that blocking a contact-weapon or a monowhip is at best harder and at worst a bad idea...but they should.

To clarify: Gymnastics can only be used in Full Dodge situations, while Dodge also applies in melee combat defense. Add to that, that your choices or a Gymnastics dodge in melee would be: Reaction+weapon skill+gymnastics, Reaction+unarmed skill+gymnastics (not really sure how you make an 'acrobatic block or parry' though), or Reaction+Dodge+Gymnastics.
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Hasaku
post Oct 23 2005, 09:12 PM
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Some kind of house-rule to that effect would certainly make the monowhip more attractive, despite the increased chance for autodismemberment. Something like: if you parry, your weapon takes the damage, and unarmed blocking is simply impossible?
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snowRaven
post Oct 23 2005, 09:32 PM
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IMO, defense against a monowhip should be limited to dodging, and possibly parrying where you use your weapon to keep the attacker from safely getting at you with the whip - blocking should be the same as being unaware, I think - no need to even roll the dice, simply count no successes.

(As a GM, I'm almost inclined to let the attacker hit the blocking target even if he rolls no successes, as long as the blocking character rolls any hits.)
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blakkie
post Oct 23 2005, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE
Now, granted, I'm not sure if the SR4 rules really reflect the fact that blocking a contact-weapon or a monowhip is at best harder and at worst a bad idea...but they should.


SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon. Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?
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snowRaven
post Oct 24 2005, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon. Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?

Actually, it does, you get +2 dice when attacking with a 'touch only' attack.

As for blocking...no, you'd genreally not 'block' the business end of the fist/foot, you'd steer the arm/leg away by making contact with the arm or fist - something that'd be very undesired if the item you are blocking is a monowhip or a mage that only has to touch you.

Or, you'd dodge away from the blow without touching your opponent - hence using the reaction+dodge option...
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2005, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (snowRaven)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 23 2005, 11:32 PM)
SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack.

I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon.  Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself?

Actually, it does, you get +2 dice when attacking with a 'touch only' attack.

missed that one, which page?

QUOTE
As for blocking...no, you'd genreally not 'block' the business end of the fist/foot, you'd steer the arm/leg away by making contact with the arm or fist - something that'd be very undesired if the item you are blocking is a monowhip or a mage that only has to touch you.


Monowhip a touch only?????
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Squinky
post Oct 24 2005, 01:27 AM
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Pg. 148
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Apathy
post Oct 24 2005, 02:27 AM
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When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?
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RunnerPaul
post Oct 24 2005, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Apathy)
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?

Unless you're Neo.
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warrior_allanon
post Oct 24 2005, 02:43 AM
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depends on how they are attacking, what with and what kinda guards you have in place on your own body for instance:

person takes a sidearm tennis style swing at you with a club staff, or baton and you have decent impact body armor. you could, using your unarmed combat skill, allow the blow to connect and then trap your opponants weapon to allow for a multiple blow counter attack

now lets change the situation:

person takes a lunging stab at you with a long bladed weapon (sword or spear of somekind), you have a hard plastic or thick leather van brace, (forearm guard) on each arm but no other impact armor, your best bet to allow a counter or even disarm your opponant would be an inside to outside wave to brush aside the blade and or your opponants arm while simultaneously attacking with the other fist or weapon in your primary hand


over the top slashing attack or from the bottom it would be in your best interest to block the arm,


unarmed combat to those properly trained can be used quite well against an armed assailant
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nick012000
post Oct 24 2005, 02:44 AM
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Or you could default to Reaction + Agility + Combat skill -1, right?

Or to Reaction + Agility x2 -2.
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Hasaku
post Oct 24 2005, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 23 2005, 07:27 PM)
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?

Kinda hard to do this when the weapon in question is a 2+ meter whip that's liable to slice off anything it contacts, at least while it's being swung. Hence, the no-blocking-monowhips houserule, which represents the fact that trying to block one is essentially saying, "I never liked that arm anyway."

Parry and hope only your weapon gets shredded or dodge and avoid contact all together. I could only see blocking if you were somehow immune to the effects of the whip, like having monofilament weave sewn into your clothing.
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