Dodge Skill Is Worthless |
Dodge Skill Is Worthless |
Oct 23 2005, 02:03 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Pg. 151 of the BBB states the Gymnastics skill may be substituted for Dodge. So why take Dodge, which is good only for dodging, when you can take Gymnastics, which is good not only for dodging, but jumping, tumbling, and other tricks?
Am I the first to notice this? |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 02:10 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
Good catch. No idea what the official ruling on that would be, but here's my take on it.
You can take a specialization with the Dodge skill and get bonus dice, but there is no Dodge specialization for Gymnastics. Though I suppose if you specialized in 'Tumbling' and 'Tumbled' as part of your Gymnastic dodge it'd work the same way. And I think this was part of the rules in SR3, but you have to have ample room to use Gymnastics. This is, apparently, not true of Dodge. All in all, it is a fair question. Anyone else have a take on it? |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 02:24 PM
Post
#3
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
I also thought that Gymnastics only works for dodging ranged combat.
Of course if you get a good melee skill the point stands why get dodge when you can get Gymnastics. |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 02:25 PM
Post
#4
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I think this has been visited before. Yep, see here.
|
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 07:43 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806 |
On the other hand only Dodge is really relevant in melee full defense: Why roll AGI+Dodge+Melee skill when you can just have a high dodge rating and roll AGI+[Dodge*2]. |
||
|
|||
Oct 23 2005, 07:57 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Its cheaper to get imp abiltiy for and there are supporting bioware like synthacardium, and enh articulation that helps gymnastics....
I still see no reason beyond roleplaying (not every body wants to be a circus performer) not to just go gymnastics.... |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:03 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Because there are instances where Gymnastics can't be used, and Dodge can. Simple as that.
Of course, most of the time Gymnastics is the 'better' choice, but not always. |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:15 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's the question, though-- what might those be? I can't see any exceptions in the nBBB. |
||
|
|||
Oct 23 2005, 08:26 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Anytime you have the ability to move around enough to dodge, you should have enough room to "dodge" with gymnastics...
Unless there is something in the rules stating otherwise... There are more instances when gymnastics would be used, as compared to doge, it would be useful outside of combat... |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:39 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If you purchase dodge, you don't need to purchase Unarmed Combat or Gymnastics. Of course, if you already have unarmed combat, then any points you spend in Dodge would be better spent on Gymnastics, as that would also allow you to ninja flip out of windows. And if you already have Gymnastics, any points spent on Dodge are better spent on Unarmed Combat, which would also let you axe-kick people in the crotch.
In short, if your character has either Gymnastics or Unarmed Combat, don't get dodge. If you are real sure that you intend to get neither of those skills, Dodge may be the right choice for you. Although... how many Shadowrunners don't have Athletics? -Frank |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:45 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well mine doesn't, but then I'm trying to convert a lightly-cybered decker/shaman, which is to say I have no BP to spend on mere trivialities like physical attributes or skills. :P
But for everyone else, I agree. |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:47 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Frank summed up everything I intend to do in SR4: Ninja flip out windows and Axe kick to the crotch.
That my friend, is REAL ULTIMATE POWER!: http://www.realultimatepower.net/ |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 08:58 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Oh god...not again... :rotfl: |
||
|
|||
Oct 23 2005, 09:09 PM
Post
#14
|
|||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
There is one notable exception, and that is in when defending in melee combat. You may use either your weapon skill to parry (assuming you are holding the weapon), your unarmed skill to block, or your dodge skill to dodge. Now, if we start by taking for granted that you do not have a weapon, these are the reasons to use dodge instead of unarmed combat. a) you lack the unarmed combat skill, as Frank pointed out. b) your attacked with a weapon that inflicts damage on contact. Now, granted, I'm not sure if the SR4 rules really reflect the fact that blocking a contact-weapon or a monowhip is at best harder and at worst a bad idea...but they should. To clarify: Gymnastics can only be used in Full Dodge situations, while Dodge also applies in melee combat defense. Add to that, that your choices or a Gymnastics dodge in melee would be: Reaction+weapon skill+gymnastics, Reaction+unarmed skill+gymnastics (not really sure how you make an 'acrobatic block or parry' though), or Reaction+Dodge+Gymnastics. |
||||
|
|||||
Oct 23 2005, 09:12 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
Some kind of house-rule to that effect would certainly make the monowhip more attractive, despite the increased chance for autodismemberment. Something like: if you parry, your weapon takes the damage, and unarmed blocking is simply impossible?
|
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 09:32 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
IMO, defense against a monowhip should be limited to dodging, and possibly parrying where you use your weapon to keep the attacker from safely getting at you with the whip - blocking should be the same as being unaware, I think - no need to even roll the dice, simply count no successes.
(As a GM, I'm almost inclined to let the attacker hit the blocking target even if he rolls no successes, as long as the blocking character rolls any hits.) |
|
|
Oct 23 2005, 09:32 PM
Post
#17
|
|||
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
SR doesn't really have the idea of an easier "Touch" attack. I also think it is wrong to assume that when defending with Unarmed that the defender would actually have his "weapon" contact the business end of the attacker's weapon. Afterall if someone throws a punch at you do you [normally] hit/contact their fist to defend yourself? |
||
|
|||
Oct 24 2005, 12:12 AM
Post
#18
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Actually, it does, you get +2 dice when attacking with a 'touch only' attack. As for blocking...no, you'd genreally not 'block' the business end of the fist/foot, you'd steer the arm/leg away by making contact with the arm or fist - something that'd be very undesired if the item you are blocking is a monowhip or a mage that only has to touch you. Or, you'd dodge away from the blow without touching your opponent - hence using the reaction+dodge option... |
||
|
|||
Oct 24 2005, 01:04 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||||
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
missed that one, which page?
Monowhip a touch only????? |
||||||
|
|||||||
Oct 24 2005, 01:27 AM
Post
#20
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Pg. 148
|
|
|
Oct 24 2005, 02:27 AM
Post
#21
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
When being attacked with something edgy or pointy, don't most people try to block the arm/wrist/hand holding the weapon rather than the weapon itself?
|
|
|
Oct 24 2005, 02:34 AM
Post
#22
|
|||
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Unless you're Neo. |
||
|
|||
Oct 24 2005, 02:43 AM
Post
#23
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
depends on how they are attacking, what with and what kinda guards you have in place on your own body for instance:
person takes a sidearm tennis style swing at you with a club staff, or baton and you have decent impact body armor. you could, using your unarmed combat skill, allow the blow to connect and then trap your opponants weapon to allow for a multiple blow counter attack now lets change the situation: person takes a lunging stab at you with a long bladed weapon (sword or spear of somekind), you have a hard plastic or thick leather van brace, (forearm guard) on each arm but no other impact armor, your best bet to allow a counter or even disarm your opponant would be an inside to outside wave to brush aside the blade and or your opponants arm while simultaneously attacking with the other fist or weapon in your primary hand over the top slashing attack or from the bottom it would be in your best interest to block the arm, unarmed combat to those properly trained can be used quite well against an armed assailant |
|
|
Oct 24 2005, 02:44 AM
Post
#24
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Or you could default to Reaction + Agility + Combat skill -1, right?
Or to Reaction + Agility x2 -2. |
|
|
Oct 24 2005, 05:35 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
Kinda hard to do this when the weapon in question is a 2+ meter whip that's liable to slice off anything it contacts, at least while it's being swung. Hence, the no-blocking-monowhips houserule, which represents the fact that trying to block one is essentially saying, "I never liked that arm anyway." Parry and hope only your weapon gets shredded or dodge and avoid contact all together. I could only see blocking if you were somehow immune to the effects of the whip, like having monofilament weave sewn into your clothing. |
||
|
|||
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 17th April 2024 - 11:10 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.