 What's your Favorite SMG?, Voice your opinion. |
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 Oct 28 2005, 05:59 AM
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#101
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
I wasn't arguing otherwise, I was just -- honestly -- asking what made you think that. Fields of Fire (along with my much-mourned Lone Star Sourcebook and several other old school SR books of mine) went missing a long time ago, and I don't recall any of the artwork from it. The only SuperMach reference I've got is the CC, and there's no artwork in there (and no "100" in the name).
S'why I was asking. It wasn't a "hey, jackass, I think you're wrong, prove me otherwise!" sort of question. It really was just me going "what makes you say that?" The SuperMach is my shooter-of-choice's weapon-of-choice (specialization around a 10 or so, IIRC), and it's all been done in SR3 without me having an idea of what it looks like (in-game, I've been picturing it as a Mac 10 or similar, given the company name and having nothing else to work with). It's why I was curious about what other information you had. |
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Oct 28 2005, 06:03 AM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Sorry, Critias. I didn't mean to come across so harshly.
I just REALLY like my guns... :D |
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Oct 29 2005, 05:42 AM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I just checked my materials, and with a pic of a Ingram SM 100 beside one of a Calico and a P90, I have to say it gets more of it's looks from the Calico side of the family.
The handgrip assembly looks somewhat generic, compared to the wierdly ergonomic design of the P90. Regarding the Ingram Smartgun, I wish they had drawn it with a different stock. Actually, I wish they hadn't taken just a MAC-10, put some gizmos on it, and call it 2050s cutting edge tech. Even the movie Blade 2 did a better looking MAC-10 mod. In my game, I am tempted to replace it with the Ruger MP9. Ruger MP9 |
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Oct 29 2005, 07:20 AM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
silenced sten
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Oct 29 2005, 10:12 AM
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#105
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Target Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,767 |
I have no experience with real guns. In SR terms, I tend to agree with Cray: since the release of Cannon Companion there has been no real place for SMGs in the arsenal of a Prime Runner. A proper bullpup-style assault rifle ends up with concealment an SMG envies, while retaining higher power, better range, and more and better options for modifications.
The only real disadvantage is you can't dual-wield ARs like you can SMGs, but seriously, who ever dual-wields SMGs anyway? Oh, and they'll cost what amounts to an insignificantly larger amount, so you have an excuse to have guards and gangers use SMGs, but don't expect players to care about dithering away a few thousand extra for a clearly far superior piece of hardware. As far as FPS games go, I've always preferred the MP5 to the Thompson. I don't know how 'realistic' it is, but games tend to give the MP5 better range and tighter shot grouping in bursts, which gives it some allure as the more finesse-based weapon to the trench-sweeping broom of the Thompson. Again, I have no idea how well that matches reality, that's just how it shakes up in the games. Don't have a conniption over it if that's not how things really work, no one thinks video games are real. |
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Oct 29 2005, 02:30 PM
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#106
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The problem with that mindset is that, for the most part, it's only true if you use the horrifically lame firearm creation rules, specifically, from Cannon Companion. And if you are, well, there's no fucking reason to ever use a pistol again, either, since you can make a cut-down rifle or shotgun that's a hojillion times better. When picking and choosing from among published and "catalog listed" brands and styles of weaponry, SMG's fill a pretty solid niche, I think. There are times a full-on assault rifle or shotgun isn't practical, and times a pistol just isn't quite enough. I call those times "most urban Shadowruns." And I know a few "Prime Runners" who violently agree with me. |
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Oct 29 2005, 03:40 PM
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#107
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
aw yeah, we got an old school guy in the crowd. |
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Oct 30 2005, 02:48 AM
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#108
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
I'm still leaning towards the P90, with a few minor reservations. 1. The magazine is placed too far back, and does look like a Calico magazine. 2. The handgrip isn't quite as rounded as the P90, but is certainly close in design. 3. The Ingram SM 100 doesn't have the built-in optics the P90 has, but it does have a similar front sight. Here's a pic of the P90, for anyone interested: FN P90 Here's the Calico, for comparison: Calico SMG I would say that the Ares HVAR and the HV MP-LMG are members of the Calico family, but that's just a guess on my part. If anyone has the ability to post the picture of the Ingram SuperMach 100 from Fields of Fire, please do so. As for the Ingram Smartgun, it sounds like we're on the same page. As for the folding stock, the original drawing in the Street Samurai Catalog actually has the correct stock on it. Ingram MAC10 I still say if they're gonna draw it with a suppressor on it, they should at least put it in the stats. Just my opinion. Funny thing is, in the 2nd Edition rulebook they also mention the Ingram Mk. 22. This one sentence is hidden in the description of the Uzi III:
In the 1st Edition rulebook, there was a short story describing the scene on the cover of the book, involving Dodger, Sally Tsung, and Ghost. I believe that Ghost, the street samurai in the cover picture, was said to be using dual Ingrams. That's pretty much the only info I've ever seen on this obscure weapon. It's not listed in any of the price lists anywhere, as far as I know. The only other place I've ever seen it was in the Sega Genesis version of Shadowrun. I've always imagined this weapon to be very similar to a stock MAC10. So, we now have the Ingram Mk. 22 and the Ingram Smartgun, which are both different variations of the same basic weapon. The only Ingram that really stands alone is the Ingram Warrior 10, as it doesn't have the magazine in the pistol grip, as the other Ingrams do. Just some food for thought. |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:02 AM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
Thank you, I'll consider that a compliment. |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:11 AM
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#110
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Some of my PCs do, actually. And they're hardly alone in my circle of SR-playing deviants. I take it you've never been on the receiving end of dual supermachs firing suppressing fire down a hallway. Mmm... "Dodge this!" |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:14 AM
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#111
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Yup - a non-explosive AoE attack. :grinbig:
Unless of course you indulge EX-EX ammo... -Siege |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:15 AM
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#112
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Who, me? Never...
Just like I'd never use Searching Fire with dual supermachs. |
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Oct 30 2005, 07:38 AM
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#113
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Target Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,767 |
Actually, I have. I was playing a cybered troll at the time. A 'hailstorm' of single-shot attacks from a 6L weapon, at +2 penalty with no Combat Pool for the attacker, is an absolute joke to a well-armored and cybered sammy. I was - what's the polar opposite of impressed, again? Oh, right, completely unscathed. You're right, Mr. Troll couldn't dodge it. He didn't really have to, though, since it amounted to a wave of peanuts. Target Number 2 for Damage Resistance with over twice as many dice as the shooter's rolling against Target Number 4 (minimum) for the attack... doubt I have to do the math for you, eh? There are runs where an AR is inappropriate, but I find a nice heavy or machine pistol works just fine for them, especially if you're using the Cannon Companion to add burst-fire heavy pistols to the lineup. You certainly [/I]can[I] use SMGs, and you're more than welcome to do so, but as far as I'm concerned the skill points are better spent in other weapons. That's not an attempt to disparage SMGs, but rather the Shadowrun rules governing them. |
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Oct 30 2005, 08:12 AM
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#114
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Wow. I'm so impressed.
I forget sometimes that people use the canon fucked-up rules where you can have an outline of bullets surround your immobile body while suffering a single gunshot. I use the rules where if you don't dodge or take cover you die. |
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Oct 30 2005, 08:24 AM
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#115
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not quite true—even if you make them as concealable as a pistol, you still can't stick them in a concealable holster or quickdraw them without an adept power. ~J |
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Oct 30 2005, 12:35 PM
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#116
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I'd agree 100%. Rifles and assault rifles really aren't doable in an urban environment. If you're carrying it anywhere, it's hidden in the trunk (and what good does that do for you if you're fighting in the bar?) But a pistol falls short of an SMG in almost every area except concealability (range, number of add-ons, burstfire, ammo). The SMG is pretty much the perfect middle ground. I had a character who swore by them, and had a modified SMG to work as an assault rifle, another to work as a trumped up pistol, so on and so forth. |
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Oct 30 2005, 02:31 PM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 523 Joined: 13-March 05 Member No.: 7,155 |
How do your guys' characters carry their SMGs?
On a sling under a coat, or have your GMs allowed you to buy holsters (custom?) for them? Page 249 of SR3 has a good picture of what I am talking about, but it's not exactly concealable. (Yes I know that it looks like a chopped-down AR and not and SMG.) |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:31 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
..Say what? The canon rules don't say that. They say you take no damage. So what you wind up with is a lot of bullets lodged in your armour. A lot of grazing hits. A lot of stuff that doesn't even count as a light wound. And quite frankly, why should someone who's got a lot of cyberware for damage resistance and security armour (+ helmet) die from a couple dozen people shooting light pistols at him? That strikes me as more silly then "He takes no damage from all 30 light pistol hits". |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:44 PM
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#119
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Pick your tool for your opponent - if you're facing tanks and drones, you're right...the twinned SMGs o' death won't really do much good.
However, for most sec guards, it's amazingly useful. -Siege Edit: And there were those two bank thieves in LA who shrugged off the weapons' fire of responding LAPD officers until they broke out the assault rifles. |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:59 PM
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#120
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
I remember that. If I recall correctly, the cops got trashed because the perps Did have assault rifles. |
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Oct 30 2005, 05:26 PM
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#121
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I once shot down a Stallion helicopter with a single AV shot from a SuperMach. With the right ammo, they can still do plenty well against the big stuff.
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Oct 30 2005, 05:27 PM
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#122
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
IIRC, they never did break out the ARs—they raided a local shop for hunting rifles.
~J |
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Oct 30 2005, 07:59 PM
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#123
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, kind of depends on your definition of hunting rifle. They got AR15s (basically semi-automatic assault rifles) from the gun shop, which are now very restricted in California. Genius, eh? And the SWAT guys that put Matasareanu down always had them, it was just a matter of SWAT getting to the scene.
Heh. An "anti-vehicular" submachine gun. Oh, how I love this game. |
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Oct 30 2005, 09:08 PM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
The cops that were there did many things wrong. They never should have pulled up that close to the bank. They never should have been fighting against fully armored and heavily armed targets. They did no recon, kept no safe distance, and because of that they didn't have a chance until SWAT arrived.
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Oct 30 2005, 10:20 PM
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#125
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I did not, then, recall correctly. Such is the way of the world.
~J |
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