 What's your Favorite SMG?, Voice your opinion. |
  |
 Oct 25 2005, 05:20 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775  |
That doesn't really explain why it must be a UMP or why he thinks such a practice has such bearing on reality, unfortunately.
|
 |
 
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 06:26 PM
Post
#27
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
To make this point absolutely clear, there is no modern firearm, regardless of whether it fires from an open or a closed bolt, or in what position its bolt is at any given moment, that can have cartridges bumped out of the magazines and then dropped right out of the weapon -- unless by "bumping" you mean "hitting repeatedly with a sledgehammer". Further, the position of the bolt in the moment the weapon fires or at any given moment has no bearing on the proper and reliable functioning of the magazine or other feed device on conventional firearms. There may be a problem with the magazines of the P90, however, relating to the spinning feed disc located on the end of it (which is required because the cartridges are kept at 90 degrees sideways). The way I understand it is that, especially with a magazine that isn't full, the disc can get stuck and the cartridges can block the magazines by getting stuck near/on the disc at odd angles. The cartridges will not come dropping out of the magazines, certainly not when the damn thing is actually placed on the weapon. And it's obviously not that serious a flaw, since the weapon sees a significant amount of use by LEOs and militaries.
When people spew crap with little to nothing to do with reality, it's often most effective to enlighten all readers by stating as clearly as possible that the thing that was just spewed was indeed crap. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 25 2005, 06:43 PM |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2005, 06:31 PM
Post
#28
|
|||||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Absolutely Correct.
Never encountered that flaw personally, but have heard of it. One disadvantage for me regarding the P90 was the configuration of the magazine itself, which makes a quick tactical or even emergency reload take longer than with a "standard" firearm. Yay for high capacity ;) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2005, 06:33 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I remember you speaking earlier of having fired the P90. Do you remember there being any mention of trouble with the spinning disc on the magazines, or am I too just prolonging the life of a rumor?
[Edit]I'll just adjust my message accordingly, then. ;)[/quote] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 25 2005, 06:43 PM |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 06:36 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
made an addition above.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 07:29 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Well, it depends on the situation. Obviously, any SMG is better than no SMG.
If I'm going into combat in a scenario where I know my opponants are unlikely to be wearing armor, Thompson all the way. High RoF, .45 ACP, heavy as a classic car and controlable. On the other hand, WITH armor, I think I want a main battle rifle. Failing that, I'll take the P90. For day-to-day carry, I'd say Uzi or a MicroUzi, or perhaps even a Glock 19 machine pistol. (I think it's the glock 19. Don't hold me to it.) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 07:41 PM
Post
#32
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In case you didn't know, it's only the original M1921 Thompsons that have a cyclic RoF around 1000rpm. The later models, the M1928(A1) and M1(A1), hover around 700rpm-800rpm, which is pretty average for SMGs (the standard Uzi stands at 600rpm, the MP5 at 800rpm).
The Uzi is pretty heavy, at 3.7kg vs. 4.7-4.9kg for a Thompson, or ~2.5-2.6kg for the retractable-stock MP5s, and not exactly easy to hide under a jacket. And I won't hold you to it, 'cause it's the Glock 18. ;) Although you could install an FSSG on any Glock. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2005, 08:26 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 21-March 05 From: UCAS (if its tuesday) Member No.: 7,200 |
ok, so I'm not as eloquint as some of the others. the P-90 problem I read in a Jane's reference. as far as I've been aware, unless used it two hands and sholder-stock, mac-10s are quite dificult to control I've heard of them refered to as pray-and spray in situations where the sholdersock was not used, rounds everywhere. most "machine pistols" share this flaw as the light weight = more felt recoil. the UMP as far as I know is relaiable, accruate and chambered for several high powered automatic pistol cartriges. and please define significant use AE. I'm unaware of where it has been put into service exept a few eropean HRTs. But I've been wrong before
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 08:53 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
Yeah, the old Tommy Gun is classy. The one in the 3rd ed character generator is also quite effective starting at 9M before adding burst mods.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 08:56 PM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 21-October 05 From: In a Starbucks™ café near you Member No.: 7,870 |
My favorite SMG is the Manabolt F6.
Oh wait, that's not an SMG! :( |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 09:11 PM
Post
#36
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Several European HRTs would be about right. ;) In large enough numbers that FrostyNSO here got to use one.
I'd love to know where, exactly, that was. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2005, 09:42 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
The "spray and pray" aspect of the Ingram/Mac series comes from the fact the stock model doesn't have much by way of controllability.
Yes, I've heard it can be done in the traditional fashion of a folding stock and gripping the weapon in front of the trigger guard with the free hand. However, compare that to larger models like the Uzi and the HK series and you'll find a much better ability to control the weapon. Of course, if size is more important than accuracy, the Ingram/Mac is a great choice. Although the Micro Uzi is another serious competitor in size. Although why they fixed it with a bayonet... -Siege |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 10:19 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 21-March 05 From: UCAS (if its tuesday) Member No.: 7,200 |
I don't remember the refrence, wish i did. I do know it was more in refernce to the cartrige, and comparing the pistol to others. because if the smg was a dud, then there wouldn't be much millitary market for the pistol. or some similar logic. but since neither of us has held one (much less used one in combat) It is really a silly argument. (I was sure p-90s were open bolt) I'm not trying to be a jackass, just stating the fact that nobody here is a repository of all weapon knowlege, and google still has no propaganda filter.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 10:30 PM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
The P90 is blowback operated...maybe somebody got that mixed up with meaning "open bolt"...somehow?
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 11:24 PM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I cannot remember the source, but I have also read about P90 magazines losing rounds when dropped.
I personally would love to see a field conversion kit to let you use a conventional pistol round in the P90. 9mm Para maybe? I don't know what case the 5.9mm round is based on. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2005, 11:26 PM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Any magazine can lose round or two when dropped, especially when full...shit happens. If you've dropped your magazine on the ground, your problems are greater than the two rounds that popped out 8) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2005, 11:45 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Micro Uzi chambered in .45 caliber. Managed to talk the GM into using Ray's guns, removed the stock and added a suppressor which gave me a twenty round SMG with the same conceal rating as a Predator. Throw in Burst Fire Control edge, qick draw concealable holster, and add an adept with Quick Draw, Improved Reflexes and Improved Ability and sit back and watch the GM realise what he's allowed. :D
I was considering getting two, taking ambidexterity and have the PC shave his head for the full Agent 47 deal but figured that'd probably be just a little too much. :) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 26 2005, 12:05 AM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
AFAIK, the 5.7x28mm is not truly based on any earlier cartridge. Neither the case shoulder diameter of 0.309" nor the rebated rim of 0.305" seem to be shared with any other commonly used cartridge. Without changing a lot of parts, the biggest projectile diameter you're going to get is around 0.28". |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2005, 12:12 AM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
You know, it's a tool box. I don't care. You put the tools in for the job, that's all.
;) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 26 2005, 12:14 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 523 Joined: 13-March 05 Member No.: 7,155 |
That was a full size UZI with the bayonet. I think is make sense if your using them for close-quarters stuff like house to house room clearing, melee might come into play. Still, those Israelis are crazy bastards...I like it! :grinbig: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2005, 12:59 AM
Post
#46
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
IIRC there was a period when the Israelis equipped some infantry units with Uzis as primary weapons in lieu of (unavailable) assault rifles so the bayonet thing kind of sort of makes sense. Could be wrong about that, though... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 26 2005, 01:25 AM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Since the advent of burst-firing heavy pistols (and with easy access to high concealability assault rifles), I've had little use for SR's SMGs. About all I use is the Supermach for its compact suppressive fire fun.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 26 2005, 02:18 AM
Post
#48
|
|||||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Especially if said magazine is for the M-16, and you're on the qualifying range. Then it spits rounds up like a squeezed baby. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 26 2005, 03:06 AM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Good answer, Sam. :) But if I had a choice and the ammunition was plentiful... I'd probably go with a suppressed 9" full-auto AR15 in .300 Whisper (Bushmaster Carbon-15 receivers (flat top upper); in SR that would be an M23C according to moi), and pack mostly subsonic 240 grain Sierra Matchkings, with a couple mags of "oh shit" supersonic loads using 127 grain M993 AP bullets in case things go horribly awry. But that's only if I had to use an SMG. If the environment permits, I'd probably go with a suppressed SA58 Para Congo. M993 if body armor is an issue, Hornady TAP 110 otherwise. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2005, 03:29 AM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
Well, I have used a variety of weapons in my career. My preference was for the HK MP5 series, but that was due to familiarity. I have used Walthers, Sterlings (L2A3,L34A1 & Mk.7), AKSU-74s, Colt 9mm, and the HK MP5 series. The last one I was issued was an MP5 PDW with a suppressor. I found it to have different qualities and advantages compared to other submachineguns. I guess what it really boils down to is what the job is and where it is at what point in time. Hauling around an HK MP5K in the middle of Germany in the late 80's, "cool". In the middle of Iraq whilst SCUD hunting in the early 90's, not "cool".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 30th July 2026 - 06:03 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.