 Modding the Sakura Fubuki, Potential cheese inside |
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 Oct 27 2005, 08:54 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659  |
The Yamaha Sakura Fubuki is a pretty good gun, more damage than a Predator in a light-pistol sized package. But it doesn't seem to be living up to its potential - the Metal Storm technology it uses could blow the entire 40-round stack in less than a second. Admittedly this would break the user's arm, but a 6-round burst would still be very manageable and could really ruin someone's day. Since it has no moving parts modifying it for full-auto fire would be a simple matter of changing the firmware to make it trigger off more rounds, needing a chipburner at most.
My feeling is that a long burst would have pretty savage recoil (given the weapon's light weight) but because of the insane ROF you wouldn't feel much of it until you've finished shooting. I'd only apply a -2 recoil modifier to the burst, but say it takes a Complex Action because your weapon ends up pointing at the sky. What do people think? Wrong? Unbalanced? Likely to get me throttled by my GM? How would you do it? |
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Oct 27 2005, 11:51 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 27-October 05 Member No.: 7,899 |
This is my first post :)
I guess Metal Storm is too powerfull to be released to the public. If Terrorists(Shadowrunners too) had Metal Storm technology, there d be no way to defend against a few hundred grenades fired against anything like a president or a nuclear power plant! For that reason in my game Corps announced 2064 they won t use it up to it s full potential, it ll be in fact restricted to low rates of fire. There are positive uses of Metal Storm like extinguishing fire in an arcology but imo it s not worth the risk allowing the technology dominating battlefields. Like everybody agreed not to use NBC weapons, so u don t have to duck and cover. |
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Oct 27 2005, 12:10 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A MetalStorm weapon firing grenades is too powerful to be released to the public just like any weapon firing grenades is too powerful. There's no real way to directly defeat the threat of RPGs or mortars to VIPs either, other than good intel and planning. I don't see what good could possibly come out of firing lots of small grenades at a nuclear power plant, all that would achieve is a few dozen casualties and putting the plant offline for a while. You could do more damage with a few medium mortars firing HE shells. MetalStorm is no übertechnology. It is interesting for some applications, like shipboard close defense systems and the like, but it will absolutely not "dominate battlefields". If it's limited to lower rates of fire, then there's very little point to the whole system in the first place. |
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Oct 27 2005, 01:46 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Tiny question about this gun - can the shooter select which barrel they want to use?
Let's say that I have a smartlink and four different kinds of ammunition in the gun. Barrel 1: Shocksticks, Barrel 2: Ex-Ex, Barrel 3: Regular and Barrel 4: Gel Rounds. Shouldn't I be able to choose what barrel to fire with since it is a muzzle/barrel loader instead of a magazine? It opens up a nice tactical field with this expensive little toy - it would become very versatile. |
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Oct 27 2005, 01:56 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Waitwaitwait... They let you use gel rounds in a MetalStorm-tech handgun? :eek:
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Oct 27 2005, 01:57 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
I'd allow it. It sounds both reasonable and cool.
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Oct 27 2005, 02:00 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
This might complicate the bursts, depending on whether it fires all three rounds from one barrel. Given the tech it seems likely that it would, in which case doing as you suggest should be a simple matter of programming the thing right and using your PAN to select the bullet type. If it fires one round from each of three barrels you'll only be able to use it in semiauto in that configuration. Why do you have a barrel full of standard rounds though? What possible application do they have? |
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Oct 27 2005, 02:01 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Shooting things too weak to require being shot with awesome rounds? |
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Oct 27 2005, 02:34 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Hmm, I think I shall rename it "Lawgiver" - despite any copyright problems that might arise. :D :rotfl:
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Oct 27 2005, 11:27 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
If the barrel wasn't designed for that kind of rate of fire, it will warp, jam, and explode.
So, yea, I'd let a character mod it. Just hope he has the knowledge skills to warn him of the result. :) Out of curiosity, does Metal Storm technology result in decreased effectiveness of the first rounds fired, as compared to the last, due to the effectively shorter barrel? (Edit) -- Obviously, the individual barrels are meant for that rate of fire... but only sustained over a 3 round burst, with the other four barrels acting as heat sinks. All four barrels would have unpleasant effects, as 6 rounds likely would too. |
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Oct 27 2005, 11:57 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The description gives no limitations on what kind of rounds work. I personally could understand Gel rounds working before Ex-Ex. :) |
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Oct 28 2005, 12:17 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,507 Joined: 27-January 05 From: ...and I'm all out of bubblegum Member No.: 7,021 |
Could you imagine the glitch damage from this monstrosity when loaded with Ex-Ex? Dayum.
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Oct 28 2005, 01:57 AM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The implication in the text of the gun indicates that it is supposed to fire four round bursts - one shot per barrel. The rules for short bursts don't actually support that, however.
-Frank |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:07 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 14-October 05 Member No.: 7,844 |
Is it really that small? It looks rather bulky in the book to me. Kind of the reason why I decided against even considering the weapon. It's just another glorified stone thrower if you ask me. :) |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:29 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
Yeah, that sounded fishy to me, too. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. The Sakura Fubuki uses magnetic acceleration to launch the bullets instead of the chemical explosion of gunpowder, right? Obviously, that would only work if the bullets were metal. (And the bullets would probably be specially made, as they'd only be metal slugs with no casing or gunpowder.) I'm sure changing between barrels to fire different kinds of ammo would be possible. It would just always have to be ammo containing ferrous metal. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:43 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Where does it say all this metal storm stuff?
My impression was that it electronically detonated the primer, is there some info out there I'm not aware of? |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:59 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
Metal Storm is a real-world technology (Google for it). It uses ordinary cartridges, but instead of residing in a magazine and being loaded into the chamber then detonated by being struck by the hammer, they are all stacked into the barrel and detonated by an electric current. Since you don't have to wait for a new bullet to be cycled into the chamber and the hammer to be pulled back, you can fire immediately on the first bullet clearing the barrel. Metal Storm prototypes can achieve a million rounds per minute, though obviously for an extremely short period. Note that Metal Storm is not mentioned anywhere in SR4, it's just the Sakura Fubuki uses the exact same principle as the real-world tech, so I use the name. Quote from the Wikipedia article, relevant to The Jopp's question
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Oct 28 2005, 04:24 AM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
how so? it may be that the gun when fired in single shot basicly alternates between barrels. this way a short burst can still happen. or are you saying that short burst rules are not able to handle more then 3 rounds in a full burst? |
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Oct 28 2005, 04:28 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
Okay, I was misunderstanding. It's not a Gauss gun. It just electronically triggers the primer.
Well, it that case I guess it could load non-metal ammo like gel rounds. Tricking out different barrels with different kinds of ammo for different situations would be not only completely reasonable, but a really good idea. |
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Oct 28 2005, 08:14 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
And part of the selling point for the real-world tech, judging from their web site. They said they where working on a four-barrel pistol intended for law enforcement. The idea is to load it partially with normal rounds, partially with "less lethal" rounds. Of course, in SR, it'd be "Lethal Explosive, Lethal APDS, and cheap rounds in case some unarmored fool happens by" |
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Oct 28 2005, 08:35 AM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
AFAIK, MetalStorm weapons count on the previous shot fired always deforming the bullet behind it slightly. I have read that since there's little they can do about the projectiles deforming, they design them with that in mind, so that they only make a good fit in the barrel after the shot before them has been fired. The problem with gel rounds, then, would be that the bullet would splat inside the barrel as the round in front of it is fired. In one barrel, you'd get one gel round and the rest would be blanks. Keep in mind, the pressures the next bullet in line has to deal with are around the same magnitude as what the casing, bolt and barrel of a conventional firearm are subjected to. Something as soft as what the gel rounds are described as would have no chance of surviving that intact.
Apparently they've managed to get around the obvious problems of that, since they're largely marketing the system IRL for use with explosive payloads. Maybe the projectile is designed such that the pressure is mostly directed at the outer edges or whatever. Incendiary/explosive-incendiary projectiles could take quite a lot of fiddling to make them safe... |
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Oct 28 2005, 10:05 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
That's a good point. 'Flechette' (frangible) rounds probably wouldn't fare too well either. Given the dramatic effectiveness of gel rounds in the 6th World, Yamaha may well have developed one that works with Metal Storm however (since the ability to fire a mix of ammo is a selling point). Anyone else have any thoughs on the full-auto modification? |
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Oct 28 2005, 11:03 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
There are probably several ways such ammunition might have been given "protection" against those problems. Flechette rounds could have a protective jacket of thin metal that cracks open from the force of the bullet being fired in front of it (with the foremost bullet in the clip/barrel being without such a jacket). Gel rounds could have a hard coating as flechette rounds and function in the same way. (Just an idea) |
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Oct 28 2005, 11:38 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The problem with such a hard coating in the specific case of gel rounds (and other short-ranged less-lethal ammunition types) is that you then have small, hard fragments or sabot pieces or whatever exiting the barrel along with the bullet. That's not a problem if you don't really give a crap about the health of anyone close-by in the general direction the gun is pointing at, but it might be if you're trying to keep someone alive and a small metal fragment just penetrated his eye at 1500fps.
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Oct 28 2005, 12:16 PM
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#25
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Samurai Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 574 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lancashire,UK Member No.: 169 |
Couldn't you use an ablative coating instead, so that it burns up with the propellant of the first bullet, but keeps the energy away from the gel bullet?
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