 Modding the Sakura Fubuki, Potential cheese inside |
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 Oct 28 2005, 12:25 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112  |
I'm no firearms buff, but wouldn' that leave deposits of crap all over the barrel?
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Oct 28 2005, 12:32 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It's not the heat that's the biggest problem in this case, it's the massive pressure, to the tune of tens of thousands of psi or hundreds of MPa.
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Oct 28 2005, 12:41 PM
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#28
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The answer, of course, is dikoted gel rounds!
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Oct 28 2005, 12:42 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
You could always use a flat cylindrical gel round - it would deform from the pressure, except there's nowhere to deform to, so it stays the same shape it is now. The aerodynamics would be a bit shocking though.
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Oct 28 2005, 12:47 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It would deform to completely fill up the barrel, ie. it would press into the rifling grooves, it might compress and then expand again when the pressure is off, splattering all over the barrel, and under that heat and pressure it could even do wonky stuff like mixing with the propellant.
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Oct 28 2005, 03:10 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Critias just landed a critical hit on my funnybone. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:17 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Gel rounds would have those same problems in more conventional firearms, however. Clearly the necessarily-ambiguous "gel" technology already has a workaround for that. It's entirely possible that the projectile possesses a much larger self-cohesive bond than adhesive properties; that is to say it only really sticks to itself and doesn't constantly shear off bits due to heat and friction. I mean, it's gel but it's not Jell-o. Caseless gel ammo would probably look like a very smooth and mostly rigid polymer slug with a tiny blasting cap tacked onto its butt. My guess, anyway. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:25 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
They face the same amount of pressure, but these cause a very different set of problems in a MetalStorm-tech gun. In a conventional firearm, the pressure is only pushing it forwards, and only the rear end and, to a lesser extent, the outer edges of the bullet would need to be tougher. In a MetalStorm barrel, the bullet has nowhere to go but All Over. To get rid of this problem, the gel bullet would need to be almost as tough all around as a regular one. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:28 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
It can still be squishy if it has a high coherency - returning to its original shape after being stressed and not spraying gobbets everywhere. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:29 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Discarding sabot? Well not really sabot, but a cone over the gel slug that is made of a lightweight material that is in 3 or 4 parts. The pressure from the round ahead will press the cone in on itself, and keep most of the pressure off of the gel round itself. However when the slug itself leaves the barrel, with the walls of the barrel nolonger keeping the base of the cone from siding outwards the pressure will quickly push the cone away. Once the cone is nolonger a cone the pieces are going to flutter a lot and generally have a lot of air drag. Combined with their light weight they would quickly become a non-issue for damage. Could this take out an eye or something at very close range? Maybe. *shrug* But the chance is likely low enough that it disappears in a puff of abstraction. P.S. I did not know about the current Metal Storm being able to fire explosive rounds, interesting. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:39 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Okay, then let's wave our collective hand and declare the gel to have the following properties:
The polymer normally exists in a semi-solid state (similiar to glass). Upon absorbing massive sudden heat and shock, the polymer's molecular structure becomes even more rigid for a very brief moment -- long enough to clear the barrel of a firearm. After that, the molecular cohesion just as quickly breaks down and makes the projectile much more pliable than its original state. By the time it's exited the barrel it's already gotten "gooey" enough to cause a nonlethal surface impact. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:40 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Are you allowed to buy ammunition separate from the barrels for the Fubuki? Because in reality, the loads used between the projectiles vary from the first to the last in the barrel to get around the varying muzzle velocity problem. The two existing types of caseless small arms ammunition I'm aware of look like this and this. The first is for the G11 and is ignited by a striker, the latter is for the Voere VEC 91 and is electrically ignited. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:45 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
In SR4, light pistol ammo is light pistol ammo. We're way in the realm of angels dancing on pinheads here. Sure, we know the physical properties of traditional pins but we're not going to know the shoe size of the average seraphim. |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:48 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It definitely could. If it can handle pressures above 30,000psi and it's moving at 1000fps, it's not something I wan't coming my way. It will be quite dangerous for several meters in a rather large arc. Of course, the whole idea of gel ammunition for small caliber firearms is ridiculous enough that you can just go with the "puff of abstraction approach".
Sounds expensive. ;) But yeah, if you insert enough technology into it it just might work. So where's my liquid armor, dammit?! [Edit]But the seraphim in question has been described in the books, and it appears to be about human-sized.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 28 2005, 03:50 PM |
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Oct 28 2005, 03:55 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
In Fields of Fire. :) |
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Oct 29 2005, 07:12 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 2-October 05 Member No.: 7,799 |
The gel round probably doesn't use a full size charge like a regular bullet would; less-lethal weaponry in today's world (such as the bean bags fired from shotguns) have a less powerful propellant charge than lethal munitions.
Wow. 4 complex actions to reload. From a concealment standpoint, although it looks bulky it also looks rather thing (everything in a single plane). I could see that being hidden. Also, what about suppressors? Four barrels means four suppressors. How would you shove a gas vent system on that thing? |
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Oct 29 2005, 09:35 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
I think the short answer is "you can't and/or you're not supposed to,", similar to the restrictions SR3 put on multi-barrel guns like the Vindicator. Though I suppose if you have the sort of GM who lets you mix-n-match the loads, and you wanted to drop the money on it, they'd probably allow you to simply affix a suppressor or vent system to each extra magazine you buy. A kind GM might even houserule a price for modified magazines that falls somewhere in-between the cost of a regular clip and a standalone vent/suppressor. Though looking at the design of the Sakura, muzzle-climb might not be as big of an issue as it is for guns with a single barrel anyhow. |
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Oct 29 2005, 11:37 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
magazines? clip? you must be thinking of a different weapon... the Fubuki is a muzzle-loaded weapon. (yippee, 40 complex actions to fully reload... what fun!)
regardless, i would say it sounds ok to be able to buy a suppressor for each barrel. unlike a minigun, it isn't moving the barrels at all, so i think it should be ok. i suppose you might need a special tool to load it with the suppressor attached (it would make the barrel a little longer, right? and i am guessing that for muzzle loaders, you have to push the ammunition down to the base with some kind of tool, so if you don't, then i suppose you could ignore that...) |
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Oct 29 2005, 11:42 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
You'd replace the entire barrel, and reload it later. |
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Oct 30 2005, 12:01 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The rotation of the barrels has nothing to do with the lack of sound suppressors on miniguns. AFAIK, it would be quite possible to attach suppressors to each barrel, it's just that suppressors overheat rather quickly, and also cause more heat to be retained by the barrel (at least the front end of it). Well, that, and there's little point in sound suppressing a minigun. The problem with suppressing something with a 4-barrel stack would be that sound suppressors (as we know them) are always quite a bit larger in diameter than a barrel. If there's only a small gap, or no gap at all, between the barrels on the Sakura Fubuki, then attaching what we know as a sound suppressor on it would be impossible -- you could suppress one barrel, and the suppressor would partly block all the other barrels. There is no sound suppressing technology I'm aware of that would completely get rid of this problem. Even with specifically designed materials and/or electronic systems that send sound waves on destructive frequencies against those that the shot fires otherwise creates still require some kind of gas expansion chamber. With suppressors as slim as 1.5x the outer diameter of the barrel, the barrels would have to be stacked quite far apart, leading to a very bulky handgun with any more than 2 barrels. |
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Oct 30 2005, 12:35 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
The ultra-fast burst fire would probably do bad things to a suppressor too. I'd give up on suppressing a Fubuki myself, and unless you mod it for full-auto you don't need a gas-vent (already got one point of RC, which is all you need).
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Oct 30 2005, 03:09 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
ah, i see... this is why you won't often hear me try to talk about realistic gun rules =P
anyways, rules-wise, i can't see anything stopping you from doing it... oddly enough, you only have 1 barrel mount, and iirc sound suppressors are interchangeable from gun to gun, or at least not explicitly non-interchangeable. (i'd like to see the sound suppressor that works equally on the fubuki and the predator though) in any event, if you just replace the barrel, then shouldn't that mean you can carry 'clips' so to speak? and the fubuki doesn't seem to have anything to support that... rules-wise, you have to reload it one round at a time... i think i'll just make a point of never getting one for my characters, then i won't have to worry about sorting it all out lol =P |
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Oct 30 2005, 03:33 AM
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#48
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Or you could design some sort of mythincal construction that fit over all four barrels at once and suppressed them all. Of course the result would likely be far larger and heavier than the gun itself. :)
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Oct 30 2005, 05:06 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Now that, I suppose, could work. Of course, with all this talk about this gun being muzzle loaded with standard caseless ammunition instead of being factory loaded and the end-user only carrying pre-loaded barrels/barrel stacks, I think we can safely assume the gun is not supposed to make any sense at all. It's a pity, really, if that's how the rules present the gun. On the face of it, a MetalStorm weapon makes so much more sense than, say, the SR3 Ruger Thunderbolt, but then they messed up with the details... |
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Oct 30 2005, 05:49 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
Actually, the reload table for (ml) notes that with a complex action you can 'reload barrel'. Nothing about putting a single round in the barrel, just that the barrel is reloaded. So according to a strict intepretation of the RAW, you put in 10 bullets at once. You could I suppose use a stick of cartridges that you shove into the barrel all at once, but I choose to intepret that as swapping the barrel out. |
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