Clairsentience, Clairvoyance vs Bullet Barrier Options

[Sphynx]

Now, I don't know how common it is, but in games I've been in where a player has wanted Clairvoyance, they've often preferred to find a single spell that granted ClairVoyance + ClairAudience.

In our current game, Eyes (a Mouse Shaman), has Clairsentience, a spell which grants you the ability to use any of the 5 basic senses in the same manner Clairvoyance allows you to use sight.

The purpose of this post is to find out how you would generate Drain for a spell like that.

Our drain came out at Serious with no Power change. We based it on Limited Physical Barrier vs Physical Barrier. For +1 Drain Code, you go from having a spell which blocks only "bullets" to a spell which blocks "bullets, blades, blasts, heat, cold, etc". So, using backward logic, we treated Clairvoyance as the "limited" version of the spell and created Clairsentience as the full version of the spell.

So, what drain code would you put such a spell at? And please don't post how you wouldn't allow such a spell. Let's just assume you would, and if so, what drain? ;)

Sphynx

[Ancient History]

Well, I dinnae think ye ken the reason there's no spell that allows more than a single sense. It's twinky.

[/edit] and, some silly bastard will then want to create a spell for all the senses your character has, which goes far beyond five. Munchkinny squared, that.

This post has been edited by Ancient History: Sep 28 2003, 06:14 PM

[Cain]

I'd agree, so long as you allowed the use of any one basic sense at a time, allowing the character to choose on casting. Otherwise, there's no need to learn the other spells at all.

[Sphynx]

That's great and all.... that's not the question though.

There are only 5 physical senses, no amount of argueing will change that, and it's nowhere near unbalancing since you can effectively use the 2 spells at the same time anyhows. There's nothign twinky about it.

As for no need to learn the other spells, that's like suggesting nobody would ever learn Limited Physical Barrier.

So, now that that's out of the way, can people who can read (and thus see I'm not looking for comments about how the spell shouldn't be allowed) give ideas on the drain for it?

Sphynx

[Ancient History]

Actually, that's exactly why it's twinky: you're effectively making one spell that mimics the effects of five spells cast simutaneously!

Oh, and there are other senses these sort of spells can be applied to. Thermosense, for example, as distinct from thermographic vision, or ultrasound sight. Just to give examples. Strictly speaking, beyond the five normally regarded senses there are others, mainly your kinesthetic senses for balance and the like, but there would be few uses for extending those somehwere else.

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm not giving you what you want...but the reason for that is that I don't approve and you can't construct a spell like that properly with the rules given.

[Kagetenshi]

The problem with comparing it to physical barrier vs. bullet barrier is that there are legitimate reasons to just take bullet barrier, for instance if you've got, say, a bow. There isn't the same sort of reason for this spell.
If I were to allow it, I'd have to go with... *Digs out book* at least +4(S).

~J

[Sphynx]

AH, First off, look at the spells. You already get to use thermographic, ultrasound, etc with the spells as are, so there are only 5 senses effected. Hell, you even get to use Cybernetic Senses with the spells. Anyhows, start your own thread if you want to go on about how twinky such an idea is (and it's not). I'm looking for constructive thoughts on drain here.

Kagetenshi, why +4S?

Sphynx

[Cain]

Here's the thing. A limited barrier has several uses, primarily for anchoring but also for maneuverability. However, I never see people take a Limited barrier unless for a very specific purpose, preferring to use a Physical barrier for most things.

With that in mind, a single "clairsentience" spell, unless there are some significant limitations, will actively discourage people from using other detection spells. The least restrictive is only letting the player use one or two senses at a time.

There are other ways of getting what you want, however. A variant on the "Animal sense" spell that only works on spirits or watchers could do the trick.

[Kagetenshi]

Base of (Force)M, plus four for each additional sense, and kicked up the damage code for good measure (on the burst fire staging principle plus the fact that it seems to me that it should be more draining than a single sense).

~J

[Raptor1033]

the thing is you gotta keep the balance of the spell in line with the others so people don't just learn that one instead of learning multiple other spells. like with phys barrier vs limited barrier, the phys is better cause it blocks most physical attacks but limited barrier is good as well because it's mobile. so i would stick with kage's +4(S), maybe even higher to keep the spell in balance. people can still get it and use it as a multipurpose spell if they wish, but at the cost of being more dangerous to use. if they think the risk of hurting themselves is too great they can always just go get the single spells so it's not as much of a risk.
[edit] or how about this? +2(M) just for a single sense, then for each sense you get another +2 mod and for every 2 senses bump the damage level up by 1? [/edit]

[Ancient History]

Sphynx, I was very specific in saying thermosense as opposed to themographic vision. big difference.

And don't get snooty because I'm raining on your parade: you're attempting to gain the benefit of several spells with one spell, which I feel is against the spirit of the system. Doesn't mean you have to read what I post about your home-brew or give it any thought, but by putting it on the forums you open it up to crittique.

[Harkon]

Given that the spell is allowed (I would the mixing of some of the senses but no all, explained below):

Base target number: (6).
New directional sense. I would point out that I wouldn't allow the mixing of certain senses, because some use the TN of 6 (hearing, sight), with other being of the lower TN of 4 for being non-area, non-directional (touch, taste/smell) - though even this is questionable so I will just say the combination taking the highest TN is acceptable.

Base drain: [S].
Improves senses, enough said.

Modifiers:
(-1) Detection Spell. No arguments here.
(+1) Physical Spell. AFAIK, touch of non-living materials can't be astral.
(+1) Sustained Spell. It is.
[+2] Area sense. It becomes useless otherwise, it is +2 because you are buying it for two senses, sight and hearing, GMs could be more strict and make them buy if for all their senses.

So we have:
Uber-Omni-Clair-Stuff:
Physical TN#6( R) Sustained Range:T/D Drain:+1(D)

If you want to make it more taxing to cast, have the modifiers for power stack up, giving a net +5(D) ouch.

Edited to undo autoformating.

[The White Dwarf]

I have to completley agree with the above post. Assuming its approved (which I could see going either way depending on the "accepted use" of it between the players and the GM in the respective group), the above table does exactly what I would do to arrive at that drain code. The only small issue is adding area twice, but seeing as it does combine the two listed spell senses as well as some other, less useful ones such as taste, I feel thats fair. I mean at that point you could almost just project and get the same information so its not too imbalancing, but a little extra drain for doubling up a spell and avoiding sustaining penalties seems very reasonable. +1(D) gets two thumbs up.