 Who likes the hard cap set where it is? |
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 Nov 1 2005, 06:57 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
I am not saying there shouldn't be a hard cap. I am saying that the hard cap shouldn't be so low. Staring characters will hit the hard cap, fast and hard the way it is. A well made gun bunny can only get improve their gun skills by about 4 dice after they enter play. Now I am not saying that 4 dice is nothing, but really with hard cap the way it is set up you really can't have that uber hard core badass. I mean, I don't see how I could make Raven, or even Hiro.
Part of shadowrun to me is that the runners are damned good at what they do. They may not beable to take a swat team on their own. I am just saying that they should have it within the rules the ability to reach skill levels high enough to to truly be a bad ass. So what if it some what unrealistic. It's a game, and I think it is stupid the way it seems the world's biggest bad ass would get his ass handed to him by 4-5 random punks in a fist fight. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:04 PM
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#2
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I'm not crazy about the fairly small gap between where a chargen PC can be in a given skill and and the top end. But then again to be good across a range of skills it takes a good deal of karma.
For example i did some rough estimates of a VR specialized decker. To get from the most specialized in that at chargen to reach top end is at least 300 karma, and arguably more once you factor in boosting Bod to stay alive and Willpower to resist dumpshock. That's works out to 1 session/week, every week, for over a year to max out in a specialized area. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:07 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
And 5 teen aged H4X0Rs can do more than your character.
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Nov 1 2005, 07:08 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Define "do more". EDIT: And while you are at it define exactly what you mean by a "teen aged H4X0R". |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:13 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Anything you can do with your com link they can do better and faster than you can. the Hacker has an edge in this field over genor NPCs on the grounds they sometimes have to go to hard to reach places in person, but when you take out the physical area and have people just working in the matrix, you lose all benefits of hiring the best of the best. Hell you have to pay more and you still get less.
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Nov 1 2005, 07:15 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
I don't really like the hard cap. It's bad on attributes, but even worse on skills.
For example, in SR3 you might reasonably say Fastjack has a Computing skill of 18 or so, and no doubt an Intelligence of say 10 or 11. Whereas a regular decker who's still pretty good would be more like Computer 8-10, Intelligence 8, something like that. In SR4 Fastjack's skill is 7. That's it. It just can't be higher. He doesn't really seem quite so naturally amazing anymore. :| The hard cap also REALLY encourages people to play metahumans and awakened characters, which is something most people were already too keen to do! Go an Ork and you can break the Str and Bod caps for example (and augment your body with a lot more cyberware than a human can, if that takes your fancy). Go an awakened character and your magic attribute, although expensive to increase, has no limit at all! They could maybe make the whole system more like SR3 here, in the sense that 6 (for humans) was kindof the cap for attributes, but if you REALLY want to push yourself further you have that option. Likewise taking skills much above the linked attribute is very costly, but again if you really really want to be a badass, you can. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:16 PM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You're still coming across to me as giving a cryptic, hand-waving, nebulous rant. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:18 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
They will score more hits on any given test than you.
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Nov 1 2005, 07:24 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You mean he no longer seems mortal when you put it that way? Well that's a news flash. :S ;) So you think of an iconic prime like Fastjack as just one Skill? Even in SR3? He is good at a -field-, and has an enormous body of contacts, favours owed, data/dirt accumulated, etc. Also frankly in some ways a notorious self-promoter. ;) |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:28 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Well yeah, he's all that too. No doubt if I were to create him as an NPC this would be reflected on his character sheet, as it would and can be in SR4.
But if someone wants to know who the absolute best decker in the world is, it's him! Computer skill, above anything else, is what he's best know for to your average guy. When that skill is fairly easily obtainable to any old decker, it makes Fastjack seem a bit... shit. :) Which he's not supposed to be! |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:30 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
....in tests where a group of good Hackers (if that's what you mean by the derogatory "teen aged H4X0R") can act in a team manner. But that certainly isn't an all encompassing thing. Oh, and yes teamwork is actually important.....which is why friends/allies/associates/contacts and such are important to any 'runner. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:39 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A bit shit because his solo raw Hacker skills are that of fully specialized 400 BP + 300 karma character?
He's suppose to be what? Deus? He was just a man. You want super heros? Well then you are talking dragons, and IEs, and Clark Kent. |
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Nov 1 2005, 07:45 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
If Raven from SnowCrash got in a fight wwith say 5 gutter punks. Who would win in a story?Would would win in SR4?
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Nov 1 2005, 08:06 PM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
raven in both as long as the gm puts good story in front of rules lawyering...
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Nov 1 2005, 08:10 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 31-October 05 Member No.: 7,915 |
Hard cap on attributes makes perfect sense to me. It's biology. The human body has a limit on what it will do. Define that limit where you like, it's just a number, but some limit. If it's 6, then it's 6. That means someone with a Strength of 6 is at the peak of human performance without augmentation. It's just how far the body goes.
Skills however, should not have a limit. There is always something more to learn, always further you can go. If you want to control the growth, starting spiking the cost. 2x the level you want up to X, then 3 times up to Y, 4 times up to Z, etc... |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:11 PM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:20 PM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, how about applying sota on skills? still, mostly what your talking about is knowledge skills. ie, more info about some subject or other. ones you hit a specific point with say a firearms skill you cant realy advance any more. like say when you can putt a full mag down range and make them all hit bullseye and so on. thats realy the problem of say reprecenting fastjack. not only would be he able to more less read matrix code in real time, but he would know the ideas and design decisions behind all the major, and more or less all the minor systems that are used to run matrix hosts. all their strengths and weaknesses, and he would keep himself up to date on the latest IC and other security related subjects ++ its not just the active skills that make a man what he is. i wonder, is there a hard cap on knowledge skills? |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:30 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
That is utter bull, and not the whole point of the topic. For starts people knew you couldn't run a 4 minute mile in the 50's. Someone beat that mark, then more and more people did. They knew the upper limit of what the human body could do and they were wrong. still the topic is not only about having a hard cap.It is also that the card cap is right there for starting characters. You hit it so fast it is not funny. |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:38 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Deja vu all over again. EDIT: As a side note, new to a player does not nessarily mean new to the shadows. |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:44 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
caps seems fairly good.
the worst point is how easy it is for beginning to hit the caps at no cost ... Use karma based creation is the beginning of a solution. |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:47 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
... other than seriously lowering the characters abilities outside the single Skill and Specialization they choose. |
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Nov 1 2005, 08:55 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
come on ... having a 6 in a stat and a 6 in a skill plus a specialisation won't lower that seriously other capacities (it has stupidly the same cost of 3 times a skill with a rating of 2)
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Nov 1 2005, 09:03 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 17-August 05 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 7,565 |
Raven, because he's got a nuclear weapon strapped to his motorcycle. And with Reputation 6 and Notoriety 6, there's no way five street kids would mess with him. Anyway, he's not portrayed as unbeatable. Note that in the book, he lost in 'combat' to one teenage girl with a cleverly concealed narcoject... |
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Nov 1 2005, 09:09 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That last point of an Attribute costing 25BP definately puts the pinch on a character. So much so i wouldn't recommend anyone build their character that way. Then you have the 20BP for Exceptional Attribute. Plus the 7th point for a Skill costs a whopping 18BP including the Quality. Yes, 63BP puts a serious dent in a character build (i'm not even counting the extra 10BP for the 6th Attribute point). To boot you have used up 30 of the 35BP limit on chargen Positive Qualities. So no Mystic Adepts or Magicians need apply, and you won't be Code Slinging or such out of the gate either. |
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Nov 1 2005, 09:15 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
You are quite right.
but reaching the "max -1" is easy at almost no cost - and this is a broken chargen in my mind. This is my point. The caps are good because otherwise adding or substracting dices have no real impact when the pool is equal to 18 dices |
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