 Deluded Players |
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 Nov 11 2005, 05:51 PM
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#51
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
You can get a martial art from 6 (starting character) to a 10 inside...what...50 karma? I don't have my SR3 on me right now, but I think it's 1.5 an active skill to increase it, right? So 10 karma for a 7 skill, 12 for an 8, 13 for a 9, etc?
6-8 decent Shadowruns worth of karma, then, and anyone that really wants to can be better at it than my ~250 karma, well rounded, character (the one in question) at unarmed combat. Failing that, a starting Adept that's specialized enough still has about even odds (and it's not like Adepts are all that rare, especially in the latter days of SR3 after all the cool SotA '64 stuff). Failing a 50ish karma ultra-specialist, or even just a starting Adept ultra specialist? All it takes is multiple baddies to start stacking up Friends in Melee and bend my Wildcat score right over (hence Carromelleg as a back up). But, I figure, why push my luck? There's always someone better than you. |
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Nov 11 2005, 06:36 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 21-October 05 From: In a Starbucks™ café near you Member No.: 7,870 |
Enforcing realistic skill advancement rates would mean that players would need to participate in many a game session before earning any meaningful character progression.
Sometimes sacrifices in believability must be made. |
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Nov 11 2005, 06:39 PM
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#53
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Which wouldn't be as much of a problem if characters could start with a plausible array of skills.
-Siege |
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Nov 11 2005, 06:40 PM
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#54
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No. It raising skills 1.5x up to the value of the linked atribute. After that is is 2x up to twice the value of the linked attribute. After that it is 2.5x Even if the character has a strength of 10, he also has to buy manuvers at 2 karma each every 2 levels. The average STR 3 human will spend 89 Karma raising martial arts from 6 to 10. The Str 6 human will spend 72 karma. The Str 7 human will spend 69 karma. The Str 8 human will spend 65 karma. The Str 9 human will spend 60 karma. The Str 10 human will spend 55 karma. Subtract 4 from those numbers for plain unarmed combat without teh martial arts rules. The least value is 51 karma, still above 50. |
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Nov 11 2005, 06:41 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
It's 50 karma from 6 to 10 if you happen to have a natural strength high enough - which most characters don't. So worst case scenario, 14+16+18+20 = 68 karma. (and that doesn't include paying for maneuvers, but my knowledge of the martial arts rules is spotty at best, so it might not be a factor) I guess it depends on what style of game you're in, but I've not seen a character take a skill up to 10 yet, and I never even considered it for any character I played. (hell, I'm not sure I've seen anyone go above 8) Of course, the highest-Karma character I'm playing is at 86 right now (not 250) and his highest skills are still at 6 - and I doubt I'll ever sink 50-70 karma is a single skill, when I could get 2 or 3 new ones for the same price. Anyway, getting back to the core of it - just because it's possible to get beaten up by multiple enemies, or a troll with a reach weapon, it doesn't in any way diminish how insanely good a guy with a 10 in a skill is - any more than not being able to kill a spirit or a drone with a light pistol would diminish the skill of someone with 10 in Pistols. It's more of a commentary on the state of unarmed combat in SR, than what the relative skill levels mean. |
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Nov 11 2005, 08:09 PM
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#56
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It's also a statement of his character that he doesn't need to ego-stroke of beating a drunk bar patron to death just because he can.
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Nov 11 2005, 08:23 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
The other factor for skill increases, other than Karma is the skill roll and time it takes. You have to make a Skill roll of x2 the desired skill rating, and each attempt takes that number of weeks.
To go from 6 to 7 in Unarmed, you have to make an Unarmed roll (6 dice), Tgt 14, and take 7 weeks making the attempt. You can add a few dice with an Instructor, but not that many (tgt 4, 1 extra dice per 2 succ). Getting from 7 to 8 takes a Tgt 16, etc. So the last one, getting to Unarmed 10 would take a roll of 20, take 10 weeks each try. I don't know about you guys, but I see a roll of 20+ maybe 2-3 times in the whole year and a half we've played. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it could easily take a character a year of game-time (and that much lifestyle) to hit 10, and all that time, the runner isn't out there doing jobs and/or building any kind of rep or street cred. |
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Nov 11 2005, 08:31 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
...which has what to do with this conversation, exactly? Aside from being pointless ego-stroking of a different kind... :S |
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Nov 11 2005, 11:20 PM
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#59
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Only a suggested mechanic for certain game styles. I have never been in a group that used that mechanic and frankly hope I never am. Another mechanic I have seen: 4 hours training time per point of karma spent. Or, Limit of raising a skill by one point between sessions. |
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Nov 12 2005, 12:46 AM
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#60
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Ed, can I just say thank you for sharing Captain Clueless with us. I mean your Profalactic Pal pulls the sort of stuff I haven't seen in like 15 years. There are times I miss that stupidity just for the beat down. Of course they are frustrating as hell to play against but looking back or hearing about them from someone else they are damn funny!
He wants to look distinctive? Great. Let him. and when his picture is shown on the trid as a suspect? I mean an "artist's sketch" of any old troll are going to look alike but Captain Condom there is going to stick out like a sore thumb. I mean geez everyone will be dropping a dime of him. Maybe when the cleaning lady in a coffin motel says "Weren't you the guy on the News last night?" he might get a clue. If not. just accept he'll be spending lots of time creating new characters. If he hsoots off his mouth, then if someone might believe him and call in the heavy guns. In reality 2 lone star beat cops could take him down, but he starts boasting of his "great" :noob:skill and he might find a Lonestar FRT coming htrough the door, redecorating the room with his innards before you can say "Want fries with that?" As for skill levels, remember shadowrunners are supposed to be better than average joes. Sure unarmed 4 is much better than the check-out kid at Stuffershack but for people who fight regularly, gangers, cops, sec guards etc it is just better than average. If he wants to pick a fight with a crossing guard, yeah unarmed combat 4 will mop up the street. Try it with a member of the ancients and he is going to have a fight. Try it on a serious first or even second line shadowrunner and he's going to be out classed. |
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Nov 12 2005, 01:57 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
I am in such a group now and it mostly works well (we lowered the Tgt#s a little, but not much). It does a good job making sure that skill levels all around stay at a sane level, and anyone with an "8" is in fact world class as it is described. If you don't have any such way to slow down skills, then 8, 10, hell, 12 skill is easily reachable once characters get about 100-150 karma or so. |
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Nov 12 2005, 02:02 AM
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#62
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Snow Fox, what, exactly, does that post you made refer to?
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Nov 12 2005, 02:52 AM
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#63
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, let's see. The topic is "deluded players." I think it is one of the more obvious signs of delusions that just because a PC can do something because they have two martial arts styles at 10 and 8 respectively means that they ought to do so, or can do so and get away with it. Critias' posts about his character serve as a fairly clear counterpoint to show that in terms of sheer dice his character is superior to, one would suppose, more people than not in asskicking ability doesn't mean that said character can or should get away with thinking that any skill can't be neutralized no matter the rating. |
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Nov 12 2005, 06:12 AM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I think a much more obvious sign is seeing things that aren't there. But great job pretending your trolling was an attempt to stay on topic. |
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Nov 12 2005, 09:52 AM
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#65
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
*blinks*
Wow. |
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Nov 12 2005, 11:09 AM
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#66
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Troll !!
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Nov 12 2005, 12:51 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
So does anyone else think of draggin' a roped up Troll behind a boat while chummin' for a Megalodon when they read the word "Trolling"?
"We're gonna need a bigger boat." |
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Nov 12 2005, 04:31 PM
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#68
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Um ... no! :]
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Nov 13 2005, 04:34 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
You're welcome. The greenskinned elf with the horns, fangs, and a tail tried 'hiding out' at a High lifestyle apartment in downtown. Security was not bribed to not notice him, and when they got the APB, his days as a runner were over. The furry elven catgirl with claws, cat ears, and a tail actually appeared in an artist's sketch on the news, along with a posted reward. The reward was too small to tempt the other PCs, but it guaranteed her location was given to the police corporation. And if she'd evaded the police, she'd also accumulated a bunch of pirates, an anti-metahuman cult, a triad, and various individuals who wanted her dead or worse. Many of whom were waiting for the next time she returned to her Day Job. The player never figured out Distinctive Looks was a Flaw. And they didn't understand that combining it with Hunted was great way to end up with a dead character. As to the skill levels, the furry elven catgirl's Unarmed Combat of 4 (plus her combat pool) would have been fine against one, maybe two triad members. She charged straight into the middle of four. After that abject failure, she later charged into the middle of combat with five meta-hating rednecks. Who had clubs. And she was Moderately wounded. And had a spirit Confusion power on her. |
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Nov 13 2005, 04:37 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
One of the PCs uses the term 'trolling' for when she's looking for a date, due to her tastes in metahumanity. |
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Nov 13 2005, 04:46 AM
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#71
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I'd call that player a waste of sperm and air...
(Edit: Meant to refer to the complete and total moron-king who thought Distinctive Style, Hunted, and a Day Job was a good combination. If you're going to try to munchkin, at least do it right, like taking Allergy Uncommon & Mod: Plutonium.) |
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Nov 13 2005, 01:10 PM
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#72
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Which I (following strictly by the book) won't allow, although I would allow the Dis Style, Hunted, Day Job combo. I limit Allergies(and Phobias) to those examples presented in the book. |
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Nov 13 2005, 06:52 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
i put these along with the idea of dragging a bag of kibble behind a helo during that paranormal animal run as "dog hunting" |
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Nov 14 2005, 03:00 AM
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#74
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I hadn't but I can't escape the image now. |
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Nov 14 2005, 12:38 PM
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#75
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Only if the troll was a chummer! [ Spoiler ]
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