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> How short would you allow a Troll to be?
Squinky
post Nov 7 2005, 04:19 AM
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This is purely an opinion asking thread:

I was making a Troll Gun-man type that I didn't feel needed to be a frigging giant...Only has a strength of 5, not the biggest troll...Would you think it possible to be around 6'6'' maybe 6''8ish, or would that be pushing it?

Also, Do you think there height is measured with or without the horns?
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Orient
post Nov 7 2005, 04:23 AM
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What the character's strength score is might not be the best indication of height. Humans on either end of the strength spectrum aren't neccesarily taller or shorter than others. Of course, the character could just be incredibly short for a troll, but I'd be tempted to rule that they lose the +1 reach, at the very least.
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MYST1C
post Nov 7 2005, 09:42 AM
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Good questions.
I've always wondered how much metahuman body heights vary around the average.
IRL humans can be as small as 1m and as big as 2.5m (both extreme cases that result in health problems).
But what about dwarfs - are there ones only 50cm tall or others growing so tall to appear like massive humans with disproportionally short legs?

I'd love to see official numbers for this.
Unfortunately, the artwork can not be used as a reference. Elves are in general too "fat" and too small (in many cases being drawn like humans with pointy ears instead of beings way slimmer and on average taller), orks are often either too small (resembling humans with tusks) or to big (appearing more like small trolls without horns), dwarfs are sometimes drawn as small, slender bearded humans (although their description tells of a completely different body appearance) and trolls - judging from (mainly SR3) artwork trolls don't average 2.8m (or 2.5m in SR4) but rather 2.1m.
Most trolls drawn in SR history are simply way too small!
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jervinator
post Nov 7 2005, 03:11 PM
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And light. Though that seems to be improving with each edition, SR has a little problem with the square-cube law. Basically, if a human were twice as tall, their strength, which depends on a muscle's cross-sectional area would go up by a factor of 4 (2*2) while their weight, which depends on volume, would increase by a factor of 8 (2*2*2).

If you haven't seen this before, this is a very interesting article on height and weights for the various SR metatypes.
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MYST1C
post Nov 7 2005, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (jervinator)
If you haven't seen this before, this is a very interesting article on height and weights for the various SR metatypes.

I know that TSS article and like it - but it's not official (and SR3).

IMHO the only piece of SR artwork showing trolls in the right scale (body height, size of hands, overall "massiveness") compared to a human is the cover of Sprawl Survival Guide.

The depiction of dwarfs on the other hand has IMHO reached a new low with the "Face" sample char in SR4.
Judging from the picture she's an elf (slim figure, pointy ears, human-like body proportions) standing above a troll lying on the floor.
But the stats say she's a dwarf!
A dwarf? Where's the barrel-like torso? Where are the short legs?
An explanation could be that she's no actually a dwarf but a gnome - but that metavariant has not yet been introduced to SR4...
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Xeros
post Nov 7 2005, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
An explanation could be that she's no actually a dwarf but a gnome - but that metavariant has not yet been introduced to SR4...

And with a bit of luck, won't be.

You are observing my biggest beef with SR4 (and most other SR products), crappy artwork. I love this setting, and I hate the artwork (with sparse exceptions). There are a few pictures of dwarves at the other end as well. Comical large nose, overly bushy wild beard...

May as well call him Thorin or Balin and be done with it.

I know in my mind what a dwarf in 2070 will look like...precious few decent examples in the book however. They also don't have many decent pictures of elves that aren't humans with pointy ears.
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jervinator
post Nov 7 2005, 06:28 PM
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I know it says SR3, but I think that, leaving cyberware out of it, the basics for height/weight are system-independent. Bear in mind also that these are the same people than believe that, in BattleTech, the lighter something is, the larger it is. While it makes sense strictly from a game balance POV, anybody concerned enough about reality checks to bother reading this thread, these forums, or that TSS article would... COULD not care that much about "official"!

That said, artists seem to have lots of problems with non-human individuals, especially the differntly-sized. Do you remember the old cartoon "Inch High Private Eye"? Sometimes he came halfway up to a normal person's knee, and others he could walk upright through a door's keyhole. The SR(1-4) illustrators are no different. And it's not like they have a bunch of Trolls standing around the office to do a size comparison with. I'm not saying that to excuse them. They should know better, but that's just the way it is. :(
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 7 2005, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (M¥$T1C @ Nov 7 2005, 01:10 PM)
QUOTE (jervinator)
If you haven't seen this before, this is a very interesting article on height and weights for the various SR metatypes.

I know that TSS article and like it - but it's not official (and SR3).

It isn't official, but it was written by the guy they went to for the new heights and weights for the various metahuman races in SR4...namely me. I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but I know they didn't stick with the numbers I gave them initially...but they came a hell of a lot closer than they have in the past. Close enough, in fact, that I can live with it easily enough.

If there's an interest, I'll see if I can find my original numbers and post them (at least, if it doesn't turn out to be a violation of my NDA...I'll have to check on that).

It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....
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Azralon
post Nov 7 2005, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
If there's an interest, I'll see if I can find my original numbers and post them (at least, if it doesn't turn out to be a violation of my NDA...I'll have to check on that).

It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....

There is, as always, interest.

Heck, we wouldn't have any idea how the Fubuki was supposed to be reloaded without its artist showing up and shedding some (unofficial) light on the matter.
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jervinator
post Nov 7 2005, 09:39 PM
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The man! Of course there is interest! Seriously, the citing of real-world human weights and use of basing weight on ( ( actual height / racial norm ) ^ 3 ) placed that amongst the best, most detailed unofficial add-ons I've seen for any system.
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Jaid
post Nov 8 2005, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....
you mean, something like this, maybe?
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
judging from (mainly SR3) artwork trolls don't average 2.8m (or 2.5m in SR4) but rather 2.1m.
Most trolls drawn in SR history are simply way too small!
sometimes you just gotta look a little closer ;)

i find it interesting to see how many times a given comment has to be made for someone to pick it up... i know i've been caught by stuff like that before :P
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Gothic Rose
post Nov 8 2005, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
If there's an interest, I'll see if I can find my original numbers and post them (at least, if it doesn't turn out to be a violation of my NDA...I'll have to check on that).

It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....

My Interest-fu is strong!

And they got SHORTER? Dear...god...BLAH!
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mfb
post Nov 8 2005, 02:39 AM
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QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
A dwarf? Where's the barrel-like torso?

minor point: unless they changed the description of dwarves, they don't necessarily have thicker torsos than sapiens sapien. the text in SR3, at least, indicates that dwarves are pretty much normal humans from the waist up.
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MYST1C
post Nov 8 2005, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
A dwarf? Where's the barrel-like torso?

minor point: unless they changed the description of dwarves, they don't necessarily have thicker torsos than sapiens sapien.

QUOTE (SR4 p65)
Short, stocky, and barrel-chested, a dwarf typically has shorter legs than other metatypes.

Emphasis by me.
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Critias
post Nov 8 2005, 10:48 AM
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So, yeah, looks like they changed the description (emphasis mine).
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MYST1C
post Nov 8 2005, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....

Which to me simply seems to be an attempt to make trolls more playable/believable.

Actually, trolls have been my single biggest (no pun intended) problem with SR ever since I started playing in 1992.
It's an acceptable concept (big dumb fighter-type) - but the execution is flawed beyond belief.

While the descriptions tell us a troll most closely resembles an upright-walking rhinoceros and fluff texts are full of scenes were trolls are too tall for room sizes, have hands bigger than human heads and are so heavy they damage floors the rules state trolls can use normal cars and motorcycles with just different seats (while a bit of thinking and some size comparizons clearly indicate troll cars would have to be at least small trucks or large SUVs with massive internal modifications - a troll in a HMMWV would look like a human in a Mini while rules-wise the troll would even fit into said Mini), can use stealth skills like everybody else (Sneaking with a body weight of 300+ kgs? Hiding behind anything smaller than a MBT or a freight container? Not when I'm the GM.) and can use regular equipment with a simple modification resulting in a higher price*.
I'd love to see a picture of a, say, troll-modified Ares Predator. Just how large do the grip and trigger area have to be to fit a giant troll-hand (And if the grip is so large why does the gun still have the same magazine size? How is it reloaded anyway?)
How does a troll with his giant fingers load ammo into a pistol or rifle magazine?
It would have been much more consequent to say: "Trolls use shotguns as pistols, assault rifles as SMGs and may handle medium MGs like other metahumans use rifles."
Which of course could have been somewhat unbalancing.
On the other hand that's what trolls are good for IMHO - living artillery platforms.
But they are completely unsuited as runners in my style of play (more Splinter Cell less The Matrix) where stealth is paramount and combat most likely means the run is botched.

*Combined with artwork almost uniformly depicting trolls way too small.
Smells like a conspiracy... ;)
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Squinky
post Nov 8 2005, 03:31 PM
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By Sr4 standards of Troll height being in the realm of 8 feet, they really aren't that big. I prefer that over previous additions....I know they say the average human is like 5'8'', but I think it's prolly gonna end up being around 6' or higher for shadowrun characters....

So the diff is like a heads height taller....I can agree they would have a harder time finding cover, but the rest is silly to me. Why would a troll have a hard time sneaking? Using vehicles? They are just bigger people with horns, not the goofy muppet-like creature common in a lot of the art. (My opinion at least) I think a good example of Troll height and a decent pic of a troll is on pg. 53 SR4....

But, my point is this: If a Troll's average height is 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) and a humans is 1.75 meters (5.74 feet) there are a lot of real people at only 5'4'' or even 5' or less....I don't see why you couldn't be say 7' even as a troll....
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MYST1C
post Nov 8 2005, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
So the diff is like a heads height taller....

250cm - 175cm = 75cm. That not a head's height difference, more a torso's height difference, meaning when a troll and a human stand side by side the human's head is in the troll's stomach (or lower chest) area.
Assuming the legs account for 50% of body height a sitting troll looks into the eyes of a standing dwarf.
QUOTE
Why would a troll have a hard time sneaking?

Can you imagine the movement noise of a two-legged creature weighing 300+ kilograms (~660lbs). How his steps make furniture shake and small items dance around? How his massive body constantly touches walls, ceiling and furniture in an environment constructed for much smaller and slimmer people? How loud his voice (and breathing) is even when he tries to whisper (considering the resonance of the chest)?
QUOTE
Using vehicles? They are just bigger people with horns, not the goofy muppet-like creature common in a lot of the art. (My opinion at least)

Trolls are not just bigger people. Their body proportions are different than those of a human.
They are not only taller but also broader and thicker. Their bones are thicker and heavier, they have much more muscles. Their arms are longer than those of a hypothetical human the same size.

This is Leonid Stadnyk, the tallest man alive (253cm/8.3ft).
But a troll doesn't look like Leonid with horns!
A troll would have longer arms and be all around much more massive.
Can you imagine such a person sitting in a Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit (non-convertible)?
I'm only 179cm tall and I've sat in enough cars where my head almost touched the ceiling. How should a creature 70cm taller fit in there?

I'm sure cars could be converted to fit a troll driver. But those cars would have to be of a certain minimum size. The driver's seat would have to be moved to the back to make room for the legs and to the middle (instead of left or right) because of the driver's broad shoulders.
The ceiling would have to be heightened at least 50cm.
And I don't even want to think about passengers - other trolls maybe...

QUOTE
I don't see why you couldn't be say 7' even as a troll....

That's why I would like to see official size variances.

And the whole time we're talking about a healthy average troll. Imagine a fat troll. Or a troll version of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his best days.

(Notice: I do not count a troll's horns when talking about body height!)

It boils down to a matter of taste:
If you like trolls and consider them playable because the rules support it - go ahead, it's your game.
If you put game background above the rules (as I do) trolls are, while not unbelievable as beings, unbelievable as Shadowrunners (except under special circumstances) and the rules simply don't fit the background descriptions.
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Squinky
post Nov 8 2005, 04:59 PM
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I think a lot of your issue with Trolls is you are allowing other fantasy setting trolls to color your opinion of them in Shadowrun...

1.In Shadowrun they do not live under bridges and eat babies, they don't regenerate (real bummer too) and attack unwary adventurers....

2. In Shadowrun Trolls are based off of Humans, they are not mindless monsters. They are essentally larger humans, just like dwarfs are smaller humans. They exhibit slightly longer arms, which I personally (as a human) do also. They have rough skin, and cool-ass horns, but they are meta-Humans. Not D&D Trolls.

3. You are comparing their laboring breath, stomping feet, and general difficulty moving around by comparing them to those few human beings who had a genetic trait that allowed them to grow bigger than a human should. Humans have issues when they get that big because we aren't really supposed to be that big, and it causes health problems. Trolls are supposed to be that big, and have the muscle and bone structure to support it, they do have less of an ability to be agile, but they can still be capable...

4. As far as Trolls being massive due to their higher bod and str ability, I believe it is similair to the distinction they gave dwarfs in last edition, they have much higher muscle density....
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MYST1C
post Nov 8 2005, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
I think a lot of your issue with Trolls is you are allowing other fantasy setting trolls to color your opinion of them in Shadowrun...

Well, I know only one fantasy setting with trolls - and those are completely different from SR trolls.

QUOTE
1.In Shadowrun they do not live under bridges and eat babies, they don't regenerate (real bummer too) and attack unwary adventurers....

I'm well aware of this.

QUOTE
2. In Shadowrun Trolls are based off of Humans, they are not mindless monsters. They are essentally larger humans, just like dwarfs are smaller humans. They exhibit slightly longer arms, which I personally (as a human) do also. They have rough skin, and cool-ass horns, but they are meta-Humans. Not D&D Trolls.

I don't know D&D so I can't really compare...
There are numerous descriptions throughout SR1-3 of dwarfs and trolls having different body proportions than humans while elfs and orks are quite similar to norms (elf: taller and skinnier, orks: taller and more muscles).
Dwarfs are short and compact with disproportionally short legs. While their torsi may have roughly the same dimensions as human ones their small figure makes them appear broader (the dwarf metavariant gnome on the other hand is described as a having the figure of a human child with a disproportionally large head). The SR3 race description picture is a well-drawn dwarf IMHO.
Trolls are generally described as being not only tall but big and massive, with heavy bones, massive muscles and elongated arms.
The cover od Sprawl Survival Guide has a good drawing of a troll. Another good example is the race picture in SR2. The SR2 picture showing all metatypes together gives a good impression of a troll compared to other metahumans (note that he's not standing fully upright, his knees are bent).
I can really recommend Patrick's TSS article.

QUOTE
3. You are comparing their laboring breath, stomping feet, and general difficulty moving around by comparing them to those few human beings who had a genetic trait that allowed them to grow bigger than a human should. Humans have issues when they get that big because we aren't really supposed to be that big, and it causes health problems. Trolls are supposed to be that big, and have the muscle and bone structure to support it, they do have less of an ability to be agile, but they can still be capable...

You misunderstood me.
I cited an example of human gigantism to illustrate how trolls are not.
Yes, giant humans are clumsy and prone to illness because their body operates putside the limits.
Trolls of course are built that way. It's not a problem for them.
The problems arise when trolls have to operate in an environment where everything is too small for them - buildings, furniture, vehicles, equipment. And that's most of the Sixth World except rare occasions of areas/equipment specially tailored for troll use.
A troll does not bump into walls, ceilings or furniture because he's clumsy (though it might seem so) but because there's not enough room for him just like a human/elf/ork would have problems moving through a house specially built for dwarfs.
The other aspects I mentioned do not come from comparison to giant humans but to beings of similar size and weight.
Have you ever heard the sound of a running rhinoceros (its heavier than a troll but it has four legs)? In the case of a troll we speak of 300kg moving on two legs. One can only make assumptions as there exists no two-legged creature of this weight today (gorillas in captivity can reach such weight but the gorilla must be counted as a four-legged animal).

QUOTE
4. As far as Trolls being massive due to their higher bod and str ability, I believe it is similair to the distinction they gave dwarfs in last edition, they have much higher muscle density....

My view is not based on stats but on the description, the fluff found in sourcebooks, adventures and novels that depicts trolls as big (too big in the eyes of the world), heavy and massive.
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 12 2005, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Nov 7 2005, 04:27 PM)
If there's an interest, I'll see if I can find my original numbers and post them (at least, if it doesn't turn out to be a violation of my NDA...I'll have to check on that).

There is, as always, interest.

I'll see what I can and can't do about this in relation to my NDA, then.
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 12 2005, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (jervinator)
The man! Of course there is interest! Seriously, the citing of real-world human weights and use of basing weight on ( ( actual height / racial norm ) ^ 3 ) placed that amongst the best, most detailed unofficial add-ons I've seen for any system.

My answer for this is the exact same one as for Azralon's post, but I'm so seldom called "the man" around here that I thought I'd quote it just to make my ego feel better.

I'm glad you liked the initial article.
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 12 2005, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
you mean, something like this, maybe?
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
judging from (mainly SR3) artwork trolls don't average 2.8m (or 2.5m in SR4) but rather 2.1m.
Most trolls drawn in SR history are simply way too small!
sometimes you just gotta look a little closer ;)

Yes, something exactly like that. :D
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 12 2005, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
And they got SHORTER? Dear...god...BLAH!

Yeah, they let me lower their official height from 280 cm (about 9'2") to 250 cm (about 8'2"), to more closely match the art that keeps coming out.
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Patrick Goodman
post Nov 12 2005, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
It's interesting to me that no one's commented yet, that I've seen, about trolls being 30cm shorter than they were in the first three editions....

Which to me simply seems to be an attempt to make trolls more playable/believable.

Well...yeah. You say that like there's something wrong with the notion of making them more playable and believable. I clearly believe the opposite.

I'm not going to address how they've been implemented through the years, since I didn't have any say over that.
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