 Japanese Imperial Marines, Looking for stats and equipment |
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 Nov 7 2005, 10:16 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Rehovot, Israel Member No.: 265  |
Is there any Shadowrun books that lists the stats for the Japanese Imperial Marines (and especialy of Saito's forces), or their equipment, cyberware and armament?
If not, what do you think these would be? |
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Nov 7 2005, 11:57 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
IIRC no book gives the stats. As for what they are, well, the old yoke says it all:
Muscles A Requirement Intelligence Not Essential Actually slightly above average (those are Japanese, so their baseline is lower than SR's "western" one IMHO) physical stats. Average intelligence (Slightly higher in officers). They will have a lot of skills instead of exceptional attributes BattleTac System is standard (IRL Japanese forces are quite modern) Weapon will be an Ares Alpha copy or an Assault rifle with one GL/squad if you prefer that Armor will be the 5/3 Camouflage combi with some additional stuff like Helmet from the security armor Chemical seal armor mod Respirator Radio Vision enhancements HUD Signal tracker / locator LBE or Vest with the typical load Assume a rather high number of drones / robots for recon and AntiVehicle work. Those drones will likely compose most heavy firepower Few vehicles and mostly light ones (Jeeps not Tiger tanks) I don't see much Cyber. A Nano-Doc (Guardian) might be nice to keep them alive and some basic bioware (Enhanced Articulation and Stomach) might be found Rather low on magical support since the Japanese screen out large parts of the society from military service (Female, Metas) Birdy |
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Nov 7 2005, 03:28 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
I'd suggest better armour: at least Light Security Armour, if not Medium.
Currently, NATO military forces can be equipped with a Close Quarter Battle Assault System capable of repelling submachinegun fire and which covers three-quarters of the wearer (head, torso, upper arms, groin and thighs). The outfit looks and sounds like Shadowrun's Security Armour, and this is 2005 stuff. Regarding weapons, I concur with Birdy: the Ares Alpha (or similar, Japanese-built version) would be ideal. Ditto for the BattleTac, which is absolutely essential. Make sure you read the BattleTac rules and have Marine squads use it every chance they get. The military doesn't only have better gear than security forces, they also have better training. |
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Nov 7 2005, 03:56 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
There are a lot of old threads on military unit stats, although I haven't seen one specifically for the Japanese. I would probably just use the stats I threw together for US Army forces:
[ Spoiler ]
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Nov 7 2005, 04:11 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Only Problem I have with SecArmor is that according to the rules you can't wear LBE with it. Might be issued for assault operations (Storm that beach/hill) but where to carry the gear for longer ops? Otherwise I'd take med Security anytime. @Apathy: I liked the basic drift of the Spoiler stuff. But some questions: + I always considered Firearms skill to include the basic cleaning so is B/R really useful? Isn't that better left an Armorers speciality. Same with vehicles + I'd go with weapons specialisation giving the soldiers a Specialisation in their service weapon + Pistol skill for officers might be ok Birdy |
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Nov 7 2005, 05:08 PM
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#6
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's impossible to have a 0/1 in a skill/spec, for the record.
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Nov 7 2005, 07:42 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
No, just against the player-character creation rules. Since these are NPCs, I didn't feel bound by those rules. However, for consistency's sake, I'm happy to change it to Polearms 1 for everybody and Polearms/Fixed Bayonet 1/3 for the elite guys. [Edit] Looking at this now, I see how I made these stats to be in line with the skill levels real people in today's Army might have. SR puts a lot more focus on melee combat; do you think soldiers in the 2050's and 2060's should have a higher melee weapon skill to account for this? If so, what weapons would they focus on? Bayonets for combat scenarios and shock batons for riot control? |
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Nov 7 2005, 09:06 PM
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#8
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
With all the bells and whistles being strapped to ARs these days, I don't think a bayonet is going to see common use.
The rank and file probably won't see a lot of specialist training in melee skills, assuming the UCAS military is still built around the Cold War doctrine. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the USMC had discontinued formal training in knife-fighting for the rank-and-file? -Siege Edit: Of course, then you have things like The USMC Martial Arts Program |
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Nov 7 2005, 09:49 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Yeah, but SR has tweeked reality to put melee weapons on an even footing with firearms, in order to encourage more katana- and cyberspur-weilding melee monsters. Since this is the paradigm for how the SR world works, wouldn't the Army (Marines, whatever...) adapt their tactics to compensate?
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Nov 7 2005, 10:16 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
To quote Mr. Blackhand: 10mm beats Kung Fu - Anytime! Birdy |
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Nov 7 2005, 10:40 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
In the real world, absolutely.
But in the SR world, not always. |
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Nov 8 2005, 12:26 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
If you can bring the 10mm to the target and hit the target, sure. If the unarmed guy is already on you, that could be a little problematic. Who was it who made the comment about shooting a guy with a knife at 10 feet? Part of the problem lies in the amount of time it takes to train a person in hth combat skills versus marksmanship. But there are situations that crop up from time to time where CQB gets really close and personal. Anyway, the introduction of spirits and their pesky resilience to firearms would be a good incentive for combat sorts to have at least a passing familiarity with melee skills. -Siege |
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Nov 8 2005, 03:42 AM
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#13
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
With the explicit exception of the 1/3 specialization at chargen, specilizations cannot be greater than twice the base skill. What is twice nothing? |
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Nov 8 2005, 04:43 AM
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#14
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Two? No, wait. My mistake.
Four. |
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Nov 8 2005, 08:52 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Wasn't the MARINES prefered CQB gear during the Beirut operations the USS IOWA? Maybe they got back to that type of tool. According to Russian and german sources MRLS work quite nice also. As for the knive at 10 paces, ask the Russians and they will provide. Birdy |
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Nov 8 2005, 07:08 PM
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#16
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
No, the New Jersey was suppressing fire.
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Nov 8 2005, 07:20 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, at least you can't complain about the "stopping power" of a 2700lb, 16" steel shell at 2800fps. Although, according to the people who like glaser rounds, it overpenetrates too much to kill people. |
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Nov 8 2005, 07:53 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
It's not so much the overpenetration of the body that reduces an 16"ers effectiveness to kill a person, it's that it is going too fast and is too stable in flight to start tumbling before exiting the other side of the torso [and then reducing the building behind him to rubble]. :^) |
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Nov 8 2005, 08:59 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I wasn't clear - I fully support and encourage the notion of teaching soldiers CQB. Frag, for that matter, I support a heavier instruction course for police officers on the same subject. The people making the decisions in training programs don't share my viewpoints, however. There was an observation regarding a showdown between a gun and knife - at 10 feet, the man with the gun is likely to be stabbed or cut at least once. Take that with a grain of salt because I can't find the quote now. -Siege |
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Nov 8 2005, 09:34 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Sure, a guy with a gun might end up getting stabbed or cut by someone who started with a knife 10 feet away. This always gets brought up in these cases. What invariably seems to get overlooked is how many times the guy with the knife is likely to get shot in the process. "Kung-fu" might beat a gun on occasion, but that's just making the best of a bad situation, and it doesn't make going unarmed a preferable alternative in any realistic set of circumstances. |
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Nov 8 2005, 09:44 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I think the underlying assessment is, the guy with the knife _will_ get shot. And likely die from multiple gunshot wounds, but not before getting at least one good cut in.
I don't think anyone has advocated going completely unarmed instead of carrying a weapon. However, I will point out that having options in a bad situation is always preferable to having no options. -Siege |
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Nov 8 2005, 09:49 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 18-August 03 From: Atlanta Member No.: 5,512 |
I believe the situation is supposed to be that the officer is caught by surprise, IE, doesn't have his gun in his hand. Gun in hand and aware, Mr Chop-Socky is gonna dirtbite hard.
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Nov 8 2005, 10:11 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
This is assuming the officer can hit the target.
-Siege |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:14 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
... somewhere that isn't protected by enough body armour to mostly negate being shot. |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:15 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I'd absolutely agree that in the real world, melee weapons never beat firearms in the hands of a decently trained shooter. Even in the 'quick-draw at 10 meters' scenario, both combatants might end up hurt but the guy with the knife will be worse off than the guy with the gun. Even small caliber pistols (holdouts?) would have a higher damage code in RL than a knife.
But I don't think SR rules really reflect this reality. In SR, the damage codes of firearms has been drastically cut back. I'd guess this is to make the game more survivable and to encourage a broader range of weapons types used in combat (who's going to use a katana if a pistol is more deadly, even at close ranges, cheaper, and more concealable?). But does anybody agree that [unlike real life] the SR rules make melee weapons a viable alternative to firearms? |
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