 Am I missing something with Manaball? |
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 Nov 7 2005, 04:31 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659  |
Okay, so a vampire casts a force 6 manaball. If he has magic 6 plus 6 spellcasting he rolls 12 dice. I can't dodge and I can only resist with my 3 willpower? When it hits I just take 8 boxes of damage? Is it really that simple?
Other than counterspelling (a whopping 4 more dice), what can be done to live through that? They could also bump it up to force 12 and kill everyone with even one more success. |
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Nov 7 2005, 04:38 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
why are you facing vampires with magic 6 if the best your own magician can do is 4 dice of counterspelling?
get him a counterspelling focus, for one thing. for another thing, tell your GM to stop putting you up against stuff you really shouldn't be fighting against in the first place. if your resistance + counterspelling gets more hits then his magic + spellcasting test, then his manaball will do nothing as well. and also, this is the kind of thing you spend edge on. |
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Nov 7 2005, 04:40 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Well, had the GM not fudged on the dice rolls I'd have killed it after one manaball... So I'm not too worried about the power level. A few long bursts to the face and nearly anything goes down hard and permanent.
The spell just seems too easy to kill with. |
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Nov 7 2005, 05:20 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
Manaball/bolt is a hideous spell if you are facing off with someone who has a low willpower/spell defense. In my games it is primarily the Troll Killer as stereotypically they are low in the willpower arena. But I do agree if your GM is throwing something like this at you and you have little in the way of magical defense/muscle then he is taking major advantage of you.
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Nov 7 2005, 06:17 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
There's a reason to always gank the mage first.
But remember that spell casting has penalties to visibility the same as shooting does. Darkness, cover, and other shooting penalties affect spell casting. (pg 173) In other words, duck and run. |
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Nov 7 2005, 10:28 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
It says that you need to see the target to affect them. What if there is an invisible mage in the area of effect? Would they be protected even if in the middle of a fireball?
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Nov 7 2005, 10:39 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
It used to be that part of spellcasting involved a split second of astral perception while casting the spell to allow the caster to syncronize auras. That bit of setting fluff was dropped to allow for spellcasters who had no access to astral perception, but nothing says that if you suspect you have invisible targets in your area of effect, you can't go on Astral Perception first. |
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Nov 7 2005, 10:50 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Or someone around the corner when clearly the center of the fireball would reach to them but the mage can't see them. Does it still affect them?
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Nov 7 2005, 10:58 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Areas blocked from view by the corner would be unaffected. |
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Nov 7 2005, 11:11 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
So if I have my chameleon suit on and the mage doesn't notice me but targets my buddy with a force 10 fireball I'm unaffected? I'll have to hide more.
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Nov 7 2005, 11:28 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
I don't think the chameleon suit will cut it. The modifier for Target Hidden (Blind Fire) is -6, and the chameleon suit only gives a -4. In other words, the mage sees you with dificulty, but still sees you. |
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Nov 8 2005, 12:17 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
Like most Foci, counterspelling Foci only affect a specific category of spells. Given how deadly combat spells are, I'd recommend that combat spells be that area. Also, you can specialize Counterspelling. For a starting level character, this could potentially add 5 dice to your resistance. That'll give "Average Willpower Joe" even odds against the vampire's manaball. Of course, if the Vampire is allowed an equal amount of foci and specializations, you're still hosed. Magic seems much easier to cast than to resist for most PC's. For the most part this is good, but when a starting player can "Over-cast" a Mana Bolt at Force 9 and stand good odds of resisting most of the drain, it's not so pretty. Heck, change it to stunbolt, and a charisma 7 will 5 elf shaman can soak that drain by BUYING hits. Then again, it's probably right on par, death-wise, with an Ares Alpha w/ gas vent and EX Explosive. SR4 rules look to be quite deadly. |
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Nov 8 2005, 12:57 AM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah, you can face enemies who can throw force 12 manaballs that will annihilate your entire party. You can also face enemies with anti-vehicular rocket launchers. Those are honestly even more deadly because there's not even a slim chance that you'll take no damage by getting more counterspelling + Willpower hits than they get Spellcasting + Magic hits.
It's the future, and weaponry is extremely deadly. That goes for magical and physical weapons. -Frank |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:06 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
incidentally, with fireball i don't believe the mage has to be able to see you, as it is an indirect spell.
manaball, if he doesn't see you (for example, by failing a perception check) then he can't affect you. fireball, however (iirc) actually just creates a sheet of flame that covers the area, whether the mage can see it or not. not 100% sure on that, though... |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:13 AM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
That is the question isn't it? I don't see anything in the rules about Indirect combat spells on p.196 that says the limitations described in Area Spells on p.173 don't apply. Sounds like one for the FAQ.
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Nov 8 2005, 05:36 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
Even to create a "sheet of flame" a mage has to be able to see an area. You can't fireball around corners, in other words, as you can not see the area where you wish to create fire. To me, the nature of indirect combat spells seems like it would allow you to hit unseen foes, the same way tossing a grenade would. You are creating an affect (limited to the area you can see) and then that affect effects those caught within its radius. However, the rules don't seem to support this, even though the fluff does. They don't flat out deny it either; so I would agree with putting it in the FAQ. |
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Nov 8 2005, 09:54 AM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
And while this hasn't been mentioned anywhere in the fourth edition rules, it's a good practice, and probably should be carried over. In previous editions, taking extraordinary measures to try to focus and tailor the shape of your area of effect automatically resulted in the spell failing. For example, picking a place to stand where you can't see your buddies because they're behind a corner of a wall was kosher, but holding up a cardboard window in front of your face to hide your buddies interfered with the mental mindset needed to be able to cast the spell.
Well, with SR4's Augmented Reality you wouldn't need the cardboard anymore. Just get your hacker buddy to whip up a special ARE Program that will black out your teammates on demand. |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:39 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
While it makes sense to say you'd still be affected even if invisible or hidden via other means the fireball could also just be starting everyone on fire with your mind. If you don't target them and see them they don't get damaged by the fireball. Else the mage will just start targetting sections of wall, etc every time he thinks there is someone invisible or whatever nearby and hurt them that way.
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Nov 8 2005, 01:45 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
and that was a standard and accepted use of fireball
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Nov 8 2005, 01:51 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
As far as I know that is not how the good old elemental manipulation spells worked. A fireball is just that. A magically summoned ball of fire aimed by the mage at some point. It affects everything in its area of effect like a grenade would do and it is hindered by see-through barriers like a window-pane. If the new rules for indirect manipulation spells do not mention that, it has clearly been forgotten. I don't see any reason why that should have changed from 3rd to 4th edition. So you do in fact hit the invisible mage or the guy behind the corner.
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Nov 8 2005, 01:55 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
pretty much, you needed LOS to the center point.. it may have changed due as a sacrifice on the great altar of the universal rules system theory
edit: typoes and grammar |
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Nov 8 2005, 02:01 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
Jup, that's true. |
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Nov 8 2005, 03:01 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
While what you say makes sense, can you provide any rules to back it up. The only thing I see is that if you don't see something you can't target it and only things you target can be affected.
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Nov 8 2005, 03:15 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
I can only quote from Geman second and third edition rulebooks. But I think that will possibly be no help to you. Until stated otherwise in an official FAQ I will stick to that rule.
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Nov 8 2005, 03:28 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Hey, I speak a *little* German. I took it for a year in college, about 10 years ago...
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