 Initiative passes, getting more of 'em |
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 Nov 8 2005, 01:15 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822  |
I liked the old initiative system (2nd and 3rd editions). I liked the way a random initiative roll gave you your initiative and the number of actions you got that turn.
It made sense to me that really fast characters could go once or three times before other characters got to go at all in 2nd edition. When they changed it in 3rd edition, I was funny, but I understood the annoyance of having slow character (magicians) waiting around until all the adepts and sams finished all their actions first. They unified it even more in 4th edition by giving all characters a fixed number of "initiative passes" each round. I'm a little funny on this one too, but I'm gonna give it a try. So, on to my point: there seems to be only a couple ways of getting more than one initiative pass: 1) Cyberware (i.e. Wired Reflexes) 2) Adept power (i.e. Improved reflexes) 3) Go VR 4) Astrally project 5) Have the Increase Reflexes spell cast on you. Do you think it would be fair to allow a more mundane way to get another initiative pass? Here's an idea I've been playing with: Allow the purchase of a quality - call it "Natural Reflexes" - that gives you an additional initiative pass. Wired reflexes 1 costs 10,000 :nuyen:, which comes out to 2 BP, so I think 5 BP is fair for this quality. I'm thinking of only allowing it for characters who meet a prerequisite Reaction rating. What do you think? Dread Polack |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:18 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Make it a 10 or 15... an extra pass is rather amazing for simple natural ability. I'm unsure about it personally though...
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Nov 8 2005, 01:22 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Don't do it. It's too cheap, for one thing - Wired Reflexes is a hit to essence. That's big. There IS a mundane way to get another pass. Edge. Spend a point of Edge, get another pass. |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:26 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
One thing to note is that two of the book's mundane animals (great cat and wolf, I think) inexplicably have two IP's, with no special qualities or anything mentioned.
The nuyen cost for an extra initiative pass is low because all cyberware tends to be extremely low. To get an extra initiative pass as a magic character has a heavier cost: - 3 BP for a caster to learn it, then required to sustain it (or purchase a foci) which can be painful on their other actions - To get one extra IP as an Adept costs an entire 2 power points, or 20 bp worth of Magic attribute. Not to mention the cost of taking the qualities to gain Magic. So yeah, I'd lean more towards 10 or 15 BP as the cost for Natural Reflexes, but I do think it should be possible. A lot of qualities are kinda cruddy as is, and this would make sense to add. |
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Nov 8 2005, 01:34 AM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
6) Spend Edge. |
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Nov 8 2005, 02:23 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I say bad idea. 2 probs for me:
1. Cybered/magicked/whatever characters PAY a decent amount for that extra pass, It would be unfair to make a normal guy as good as augmented characters...Thats why normal folk become augmented... 2. Everywhere you looked would be Street Shamans with this new fancy quality. Also you would get a lot of Street Sams that would get it to save essence and the even more valuable starting cash (used on other ware) Same deal with adepts...Thats 2 magic points saved...Yikes.... This idea is kinda like a a character wanting to make a new Heavy Pistol that fires burst and has teh ruger damage codes, everbody would get it.... |
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Nov 8 2005, 02:52 AM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Didn't the Germans put one of those in one of the official German language sourcebooks? |
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Nov 8 2005, 08:51 AM
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#8
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, but you could build such thing perfectly with the CC rules.
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Nov 8 2005, 11:15 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
I would say that natural augmented reflexes could only be purchased at rank 1. I think the cost should 150% or 200% the cost for an adept, so 30 or 40 points. if it cost only 15 or 20 points there is no reason for an adept to take the aumented reflexes power (edit) at level 1 (except for purpose of increasing it later). |
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Nov 8 2005, 11:20 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
I once used the CC rules for fun to create a burst-capable bullpup hunting rifle with 7S damage, 40rds magazine and concealability 7... |
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Nov 8 2005, 12:06 PM
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#11
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Who hasn't?
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Nov 8 2005, 12:13 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
*rising a hand* Me!
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Nov 8 2005, 12:59 PM
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#13
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Noob!
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Nov 8 2005, 09:32 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 4-April 05 From: Downunder Member No.: 7,284 |
Of course, you could just develop a nasty addiction to any of whole range of great combat drugs! That'd be worth the extra passes, surely ;)
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Nov 8 2005, 09:47 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Okay, so I use combat drugs and get addicted. Then I pay twice the Negative Quality's value in karma and get the Quality removed. I keep using the drugs, though. Repeat.
So I'm just fueling my extra IPs with karma. Yay! |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:11 PM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Until you fail an addiction roll, then the spiral down begins anew. :) EDIT: Oh, i see. You intend on repeatedly buying off the Negative. Hrmmm, have to check into that to make sure you can buy off a Negative Quality that you pick up during play. |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:23 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
GM Discretion.
Which means at some point a wise GM might smack you down for exploiting him/her. :) |
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Nov 8 2005, 10:29 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Hehe, i also noticed that the GM doesn't have to use the Addiction Test to see whether or not the character is addicted. I'd be inclined to think that someone that was addicted and went through Withdrawl (you don't even need to spend Karma if you can tough it out) or buyout of the Negative is automatically addicted again at at least the previous level if they voluntarily choose to reuse. I mean they want to use it, right? I'd say that's a clear sign the addiction is still there. Even if it is just the character's powergamer player addicted to cheap IP. :D EDIT: Dropping Negative Quality also explicitly talks about shedding Addiction, and it don't sound good for that little Jazz/Cram popping muchkin. Basically he has to go through Withdrawl and then stay clean long enough (in the GM's opinion) before being allowed to buy off the Negative. There is also interesting wording about "made nessasary changes". I wonder if you might consider 'ware that boosts Rea and/or IP part of those changes if getting a combat edge was part of what was driving the use to start with? |
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Nov 8 2005, 11:45 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Allowing a Quality that gives you an extra IP should cost a minimum of 20 BP, and preferrably 25 or maybe even 30 BPs. That extra IP should NOT be compatible with any magical or technological IP enhancing stuff - you simply get the higher bonus.
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Nov 9 2005, 02:44 AM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not stacking with 'ware or Magical IP bonuses is probably the best way to allow it from a gaming perspective, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense since it is "natural". :(
I would NOT increase the cost above 20BP because that would preclude some character types from having it. At 25BP Magicians could no longer take it, at 30BP Mystic Adepts cannot. |
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Nov 9 2005, 06:19 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
Good points, all around. I'm not sure if it's still a good idea, but here's a revised version, ready to be picked apart:
"Natural Reflexes" -15 points Prerequisite: Reaction 6 (or higher, or perhaps an Initiative minimum of 12 or so) This gives the character an extra initiative in normal combat. This extra pass does not stack with extra initiative passes gained from other means. This quality would be meant for characters who want to go "natural" and aren't awakened. They're simply naturally gifted individuals or dedicated martial artists. Dread Polack |
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Nov 9 2005, 07:05 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
You know, I really dig that truthfully...Since it requires a lot in the first place...Can't really knock it...
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Nov 9 2005, 04:59 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 8-October 02 Member No.: 3,425 |
Yep i like that as well. The sammies and adepts arent going to get too bent out of shape over a mundane having one extra pass... not sure how if it could be abused by mages/shaman though.
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Nov 9 2005, 05:17 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
They save a sustaining focus, and the problems associated with having one active, with the trade off that they must spend a point of Edge to gain each time for a 3rd IP and can never have the 4th (unless they cast and sustain the appropriate spell). With Adepts, the 15BP is cheaper than the two points of Magic for the first level of the Improved Initiative power. But that path deadends there. P.S. Not that many Adepts will take Improved Initiative. Currently the reasons an Adept would take Improved Initiative over bioware are not wanting to wait to save up the cash to get that 3rd IP (but in the process limiting their character's power), deciding to gimp their PC by putting 5 PP into getting the 4th IP, "story esthetics", or for the NPC types that cannot use bioware such as critters with the Regenerating power or dracoforms. |
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Nov 9 2005, 05:45 PM
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#25
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Or the poor bastards who have to convert an SR3 character to SR4.
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