Fletchette Ammo Question Options

[Ed_209a]

There's one thing about fletchette ammo that confuses me.

When you use Fletchette ammo against an unarmored target, you bump the damage up one level. That is clear.

"For the target's armor rating, use either double it's impact armor rating, or it's normal ballistic rating, whichever is higher

Could someone explain why that is a disadvantage?

Unless the rules are wrong in my BBB, you are still keeping the +1 damage level, and the target is only increasing their effective armor by a point or so.

Did they mean to drop the damage level, or double both ballistic and impact for resisting fletchettes?

[Clipwing]

The way I read it, flechette rounds only increase their damage level against unarmored targets:

SR3, p. 116: "Against unarmored targets, flechette rounds increase their damage codes by one level. . . Against armored targets . . . "

I think you're just thinking that rule should apply for both, whereas it actually should only apply for the unarmored targets. The armored targets get the benefit of increased armor if double their impact armor is greater than their ballistic. Now, if it's not, the whole thing's a wash, there's no particular advantage or disadvantage to using flechette.

[Kagetenshi]

I think you're supposed to not stage up for armored targets, which is how most of my GMs have treated it (and the way I treat it when I GM; "most" of my GMs is all two of them at this point); otherwise, there's not much point beyond cost to using anything but flechette ammo. After all, even at a power of 2 that's another two body dice the opponent has to have to be able to stage.

~J

[Glyph]

Flechette ammunition only stages up its damage level against unarmored targets. The rules are very explicit about this. Even dermal armor prevents it from staging up a damage level. Against armored targets, it uses its normal damage level, and the target uses either ballistic or double impact armor to resist it. For "normal" armor, this is not much difference, but there are many ways to have a high impact armor. The armor spell, which provides both impact and ballistic armor, effectively doubles its rating against flechette ammo. The cybernetic combination of dermal sheath and bone lacing, or the adept power of mystic armor, or higher-end armor such as security armor, can all seriously reduce the power of flechettes.

[Switchblade]

So an attack with a slivergun against an unarmored target would be 9S, and an attack against a target wearing 4/2 points of armor would be 5M; if there's still any question.

It's really not too much of a huge disadvantage. Most people don't like it though because... how often does a shadowrunner get into combat with some one in no armor? Next to never.

[Talondel]

In other words, flechette ammo is fantastic for hosing down crowds in an old folk's home or library something, but not as good as regular ammo for shooting anyone else (armored targets).

The "double impact or normal ballistic" doesn't often work out to a huge difference in their final soak TN, but in games where layering armor happens more often than not (and everyone waddles around in form fit 4, overalls, a vest, an armored jacket, a shield, and a helmet)...well, they just sorta bounce off. So, naturally, if you ask anyone who plays in that sort of game, they'll tell you flechette ammo sucks.

[Ed_209a]

OK, that makes sense. My BBB wasn't perfectly clear on the topic. Maybe a later printing was more clear.

[Glyph]

The thing to remember, though, is that unless someone has hardened armor, the TN for resisting damage can't go below 2. And ranged combat works on net successes, so a shooter who spends a lot of Combat Pool can, under ideal conditions, bring someone down with low-powered ammo. In other words, if they get 10 successes, the other person, even if they roll 10 successes themselves, will still wind up taking the base damage.

That said, most runners would still not be likely to bother with flechette ammo, except that the Ares Viper uses that ammo. The Ares Viper is a great "stealth" gun, because it has 6 Concealability and a relatively low weight, even though it carries a 30-round clip, has an integral silencer, and can shoot bursts. So will you take an Ares Viper to that corporate party, or a light pistol with the same Concealability, no silencer, less rounds, and far less damaging capability?


Yay! The AVS has been re-introduced to the forums! :love:

[Switchblade]

Boo! The AVS has been re-introduced to the forums! :mad:

Some one said it's good for hosing. It's not. Flechettes do not spread like a shotgun. It's still just a one target for one shot firearm. Now the Enfield AS-7 with 50 round drum, now *there's* a gun for hosings.

[TinkerGnome]

The best use for the flechette rules is as it applies to shotgun ammo since it's hard to dodge. Flechette ammo itself is good in a few situations where armor is impractical for your foes (social situations, for instance) or they simply don't wear it.

[Talondel]

[Laughlyn]

As a house rule I implement, there are more than just two armor levels. Those being "no armor" and "armored". So if a guy is in a leather jacket or just a motorcycle helmet, he can still be screwed up by a flechette round, hollow point and or an anti personnel grenade.

Flechette Damage Rules vs armor
1. Flechette Damage is treated normally for unarmored targets.
2. Flechette Damage is not automatically staged up against people with dermal plating dermal sheathing, etc).
3. Flechette Damage against armor is not staged up if the power of the attack is reduced 50% or more.

Ex 1: A heavy pistol (9M) firing flechette ammo against a target with 5 points of ballistic armor or 3 points of impact armor would not be staged up. If the target had 4 points of ballistic or 2 points of impact, the damage would be staged up as per the rules.

Ex 2: An SMG firing a 3 round burst (say 10S base) of flechette ammo against a target wearing 5 points of ballistic armor or 3 points of impact armor would not be staged up. If the target had 4 points of ballistic or 2 points of impact, the damage would be staged up as per the rules.

[Lilt]

[Laughlyn]

The armored and unarmored I was refering to is the "Shadowrun" armor system.

I added the burst fire rule because most people wearing armor, aren't fully covered in armor. Most armored people are wearing an armored jacket, vest with plates, etc. Anyone pushing past 6/4 armor are going to resist flechette rounds pretty easily. With a burst means a bigger shot pattern. Most weapons don't fire a simple burst that stays in one small area, it spreads.

[Kagetenshi]

Well, yes. If the bullets all hit in the same spot, in quick succession, I'd think that the additional tissue damage would be tiny.

~J

[Arethusa]

Honestly, there's no point in waiting for a Raygun response to this one as there is absolutely no parallel between real life flechettes and their Shadowrun incarnation. If Shadowrun flechettes were even close, they'd be getting double range tables, a damage code reduction, and increased power. Real flechettes do a great job of sailing straight through armor; problem is, they do a great job of sailing straight through people, too, which leaves them with relatively little stopping power (but you'll die in a few days from a punctured liver!). As it stands, SR flechettes have more in common with dum-dum/frangible rounds or that flak cannon from Unreal Tournament than they do with anything real.

[Kurukami]

[Arethusa]

[Glyph]

Personally, I have always assumed that both shot and slug rounds were considered "regular" ammunition.

[Arethusa]

I was under the impression that shot rounds were handled as flechette rounds for numbers purposes?

[Switchblade]

I pity the character that has to worry about the extra money for a few rounds.

Flechette rules only apply to shotguns when determining damage. Says so in the book. Apply "regular ammo" for purchasing shotgun shells.

[Laughlyn]

They used to have "real life" flechette in the game. I think it was called needle ammo and it was in the Neo Anarchist Guide to Real Life. Basically it ignored 3 points of ballistic and was stopped cold by 4 or more points of ballistic armor. If I remember correctly, it used the old armor system so you might figure it would ignore a bit more armor under the newer one (non first edition).

Shot and slug are both regular ammo in the way of costs. God knows why though, I pay less for 5.56mm than I do for buckshot or slug for my 12ga. Give or take it's around $11 for 20 5.56mm (Rem .223), solid 2 3/4 12ga slugs are $9 for 5, 2 3/4 12ga buckshot is $3 for 5 shots, and 3in 12ga buckshot is $4 for 5. But that's the Shadowrun ammo system for you. I won't go into using buckshot with a rifled barrel and accuracy issues that causes.

[Arethusa]

Assuming Shadowrun makes any sense at all with its shotguns, the slugs are rifled, allowing them to be fired through the smoothbore necessary for shot.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Laughlyn]

Arethusa

Slugs fired through a rifled barrel (both regular slugs and sabot) are similar in action to what Shadowrun uses for ranges. Smooth bore shotguns firing a rifled slug suck in a big way. The accuracy just isn't there. You go from firing in 2.5in pattern (5 shots in rifled barrel) to a 3in pattern at 50yds with rapidly growing pattern.

So it's pretty much one or the other. Granted you could use a rifled barrel for short range shooting using shot (to include buckshot). But again that's short range, the action of the pellets spinning causes the pattern to open up way too much. Or a smooth bore to fire slugs at short range.