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> Fletchette Ammo Question
Ed_209a
post Aug 17 2003, 02:53 AM
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There's one thing about fletchette ammo that confuses me.

When you use Fletchette ammo against an unarmored target, you bump the damage up one level. That is clear.

"For the target's armor rating, use either double it's impact armor rating, or it's normal ballistic rating, whichever is higher

Could someone explain why that is a disadvantage?

Unless the rules are wrong in my BBB, you are still keeping the +1 damage level, and the target is only increasing their effective armor by a point or so.

Did they mean to drop the damage level, or double both ballistic and impact for resisting fletchettes?
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Clipwing
post Aug 17 2003, 03:12 AM
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The way I read it, flechette rounds only increase their damage level against unarmored targets:

SR3, p. 116: "Against unarmored targets, flechette rounds increase their damage codes by one level. . . Against armored targets . . . "

I think you're just thinking that rule should apply for both, whereas it actually should only apply for the unarmored targets. The armored targets get the benefit of increased armor if double their impact armor is greater than their ballistic. Now, if it's not, the whole thing's a wash, there's no particular advantage or disadvantage to using flechette.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 17 2003, 04:19 AM
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I think you're supposed to not stage up for armored targets, which is how most of my GMs have treated it (and the way I treat it when I GM; "most" of my GMs is all two of them at this point); otherwise, there's not much point beyond cost to using anything but flechette ammo. After all, even at a power of 2 that's another two body dice the opponent has to have to be able to stage.

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Glyph
post Aug 17 2003, 06:36 AM
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Flechette ammunition only stages up its damage level against unarmored targets. The rules are very explicit about this. Even dermal armor prevents it from staging up a damage level. Against armored targets, it uses its normal damage level, and the target uses either ballistic or double impact armor to resist it. For "normal" armor, this is not much difference, but there are many ways to have a high impact armor. The armor spell, which provides both impact and ballistic armor, effectively doubles its rating against flechette ammo. The cybernetic combination of dermal sheath and bone lacing, or the adept power of mystic armor, or higher-end armor such as security armor, can all seriously reduce the power of flechettes.
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Switchblade
post Aug 17 2003, 04:50 PM
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So an attack with a slivergun against an unarmored target would be 9S, and an attack against a target wearing 4/2 points of armor would be 5M; if there's still any question.

It's really not too much of a huge disadvantage. Most people don't like it though because... how often does a shadowrunner get into combat with some one in no armor? Next to never.
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Talondel
post Aug 17 2003, 06:46 PM
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In other words, flechette ammo is fantastic for hosing down crowds in an old folk's home or library something, but not as good as regular ammo for shooting anyone else (armored targets).

The "double impact or normal ballistic" doesn't often work out to a huge difference in their final soak TN, but in games where layering armor happens more often than not (and everyone waddles around in form fit 4, overalls, a vest, an armored jacket, a shield, and a helmet)...well, they just sorta bounce off. So, naturally, if you ask anyone who plays in that sort of game, they'll tell you flechette ammo sucks.
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Ed_209a
post Aug 17 2003, 06:58 PM
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OK, that makes sense. My BBB wasn't perfectly clear on the topic. Maybe a later printing was more clear.
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Glyph
post Aug 17 2003, 11:14 PM
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The thing to remember, though, is that unless someone has hardened armor, the TN for resisting damage can't go below 2. And ranged combat works on net successes, so a shooter who spends a lot of Combat Pool can, under ideal conditions, bring someone down with low-powered ammo. In other words, if they get 10 successes, the other person, even if they roll 10 successes themselves, will still wind up taking the base damage.

That said, most runners would still not be likely to bother with flechette ammo, except that the Ares Viper uses that ammo. The Ares Viper is a great "stealth" gun, because it has 6 Concealability and a relatively low weight, even though it carries a 30-round clip, has an integral silencer, and can shoot bursts. So will you take an Ares Viper to that corporate party, or a light pistol with the same Concealability, no silencer, less rounds, and far less damaging capability?


Yay! The AVS has been re-introduced to the forums! :love:
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Switchblade
post Aug 18 2003, 12:42 AM
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Boo! The AVS has been re-introduced to the forums! :mad:

Some one said it's good for hosing. It's not. Flechettes do not spread like a shotgun. It's still just a one target for one shot firearm. Now the Enfield AS-7 with 50 round drum, now *there's* a gun for hosings.
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TinkerGnome
post Aug 18 2003, 02:39 AM
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The best use for the flechette rules is as it applies to shotgun ammo since it's hard to dodge. Flechette ammo itself is good in a few situations where armor is impractical for your foes (social situations, for instance) or they simply don't wear it.
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Talondel
post Aug 18 2003, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Switchblade)

Some one said it's good for hosing.  It's not. 

I said it was good for hosing down crowds at old folks' homes, yeah.

And I'm standing by it.

You pop a 60 round flechette clip into an Ares Hvar, and you'll be opening up spots at Whispering Groves retirement center faster than dumping gamma-anthrax in their water supply.

Against unarmored opponents, suppressive fire (as per the CC) and a crate of flechette ammo is hard to beat. Fire 18 rounds per complex action into the rec hall, spread it out for about a six meter area, and watch the shuffleboard area clear out faster than the nurse with the rubber gloves. 3 shots per meter means every decrepit old bag of bones in that six meter spread needs to get 3 successes on a Combat Pool test (good luck, gramma, hope that plastic hip doesn't slow ya down!) or they get hit. When they do get hit, you're making a TN 6 attack roll (period/paragraph, recoil doesn't do diddly squat during suppression, remember?) and their base damage taken is 6S. Base damage taken, for everyone in that six meter area. I double dog dare you to find a retirement home community that wouldn't get the cafeteria cleaned out by about six seconds (two combat rounds) of that sort of fire.

All the jell-0 you want, man. It's yours for the taking.

Now, I'm not saying flechette ammo is the only thing good for hosing, and I'm not saying it'll do much (using suppressive fire and flechettes) against armored opponents. But if all you want to do is make sure there's a room open for your dear old ma when she finally makes the decision to move out of your old house and into assisted living, well, it's hard to beat.
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Laughlyn
post Aug 18 2003, 10:58 PM
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As a house rule I implement, there are more than just two armor levels. Those being "no armor" and "armored". So if a guy is in a leather jacket or just a motorcycle helmet, he can still be screwed up by a flechette round, hollow point and or an anti personnel grenade.

Flechette Damage Rules vs armor
1. Flechette Damage is treated normally for unarmored targets.
2. Flechette Damage is not automatically staged up against people with dermal plating dermal sheathing, etc).
3. Flechette Damage against armor is not staged up if the power of the attack is reduced 50% or more.

Ex 1: A heavy pistol (9M) firing flechette ammo against a target with 5 points of ballistic armor or 3 points of impact armor would not be staged up. If the target had 4 points of ballistic or 2 points of impact, the damage would be staged up as per the rules.

Ex 2: An SMG firing a 3 round burst (say 10S base) of flechette ammo against a target wearing 5 points of ballistic armor or 3 points of impact armor would not be staged up. If the target had 4 points of ballistic or 2 points of impact, the damage would be staged up as per the rules.

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Lilt
post Aug 18 2003, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Laughlyn)
As a house rule I implement, there are more than just two armor levels.  Those being "no armor" and "armored".  So if a guy is in a leather jacket or just a motorcycle helmet, he can still be screwed up by a flechette round, hollow point and or an anti personnel grenade.

Flechette Damage Rules vs armor
1.  Flechette Damage is treated normally for unarmored targets.
2.  Flechette Damage is not automatically staged up against people with dermal plating dermal sheathing, etc).
3.  Flechette Damage against armor is not staged up if the power of the attack is reduced 50% or more.
Ah. Interesting system, I like it. Personally I'd re-phrase that to Sufficiently Armored and Insufficiently Armored.
QUOTE
Ex 2:  An SMG firing a 3 round burst (say 10S base) of flechette ammo against a target wearing 5 points of ballistic armor or 3 points of impact armor would not be staged up.  If the target had 4 points of ballistic or 2 points of impact, the damage would be staged up as per the rules.
Hmm. Could I suggest that the base weapon damage was used (7) rather than the burst-fire modified one? At the stage where most of the bullet's penetration ability is being stopped by the armor it seems that adding many more bullets isn't going to help in terms of damage code.

Any chance of invoking Raygun to comment on this topic? I'm going to check what his site says about flechette ammo now anyway.

[edit]Heh. Raygun's site says nothing about staging damage up/down whatsoever for flechette ammunition. Can anyone point me to a section of his site about the rules for various round types available in the different calibers? I just can't find the section I'm looking for anywhere[/edit]
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Laughlyn
post Aug 19 2003, 04:56 AM
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The armored and unarmored I was refering to is the "Shadowrun" armor system.

I added the burst fire rule because most people wearing armor, aren't fully covered in armor. Most armored people are wearing an armored jacket, vest with plates, etc. Anyone pushing past 6/4 armor are going to resist flechette rounds pretty easily. With a burst means a bigger shot pattern. Most weapons don't fire a simple burst that stays in one small area, it spreads.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 19 2003, 05:29 AM
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Well, yes. If the bullets all hit in the same spot, in quick succession, I'd think that the additional tissue damage would be tiny.

~J
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 05:58 AM
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Honestly, there's no point in waiting for a Raygun response to this one as there is absolutely no parallel between real life flechettes and their Shadowrun incarnation. If Shadowrun flechettes were even close, they'd be getting double range tables, a damage code reduction, and increased power. Real flechettes do a great job of sailing straight through armor; problem is, they do a great job of sailing straight through people, too, which leaves them with relatively little stopping power (but you'll die in a few days from a punctured liver!). As it stands, SR flechettes have more in common with dum-dum/frangible rounds or that flak cannon from Unreal Tournament than they do with anything real.
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Kurukami
post Aug 19 2003, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
The best use for the flechette rules is as it applies to shotgun ammo since it's hard to dodge. Flechette ammo itself is good in a few situations where armor is impractical for your foes (social situations, for instance) or they simply don't wear it.

And speaking of shotguns, why does "shot" ammo (which might arguably be considered "flechette") cost five times as much as slug ammo? I know we're dealing with an imaginary universe here, but the last time I checked "shot" shotgun shells weren't $10 apiece. :)
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 06:39 AM
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QUOTE (Kurukami)
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Aug 18 2003, 02:39 AM)
The best use for the flechette rules is as it applies to shotgun ammo since it's hard to dodge.  Flechette ammo itself is good in a few situations where armor is impractical for your foes (social situations, for instance) or they simply don't wear it.

And speaking of shotguns, why does "shot" ammo (which might arguably be considered "flechette") cost five times as much as slug ammo? I know we're dealing with an imaginary universe here, but the last time I checked "shot" shotgun shells weren't $10 apiece. :)

Because Mulvihill wrote the firearms section on a two year bender.
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Glyph
post Aug 19 2003, 06:44 AM
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Personally, I have always assumed that both shot and slug rounds were considered "regular" ammunition.
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 06:47 AM
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I was under the impression that shot rounds were handled as flechette rounds for numbers purposes?
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Switchblade
post Aug 19 2003, 08:51 PM
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I pity the character that has to worry about the extra money for a few rounds.

Flechette rules only apply to shotguns when determining damage. Says so in the book. Apply "regular ammo" for purchasing shotgun shells.
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Laughlyn
post Aug 19 2003, 09:43 PM
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They used to have "real life" flechette in the game. I think it was called needle ammo and it was in the Neo Anarchist Guide to Real Life. Basically it ignored 3 points of ballistic and was stopped cold by 4 or more points of ballistic armor. If I remember correctly, it used the old armor system so you might figure it would ignore a bit more armor under the newer one (non first edition).

Shot and slug are both regular ammo in the way of costs. God knows why though, I pay less for 5.56mm than I do for buckshot or slug for my 12ga. Give or take it's around $11 for 20 5.56mm (Rem .223), solid 2 3/4 12ga slugs are $9 for 5, 2 3/4 12ga buckshot is $3 for 5 shots, and 3in 12ga buckshot is $4 for 5. But that's the Shadowrun ammo system for you. I won't go into using buckshot with a rifled barrel and accuracy issues that causes.
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 10:47 PM
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Assuming Shadowrun makes any sense at all with its shotguns, the slugs are rifled, allowing them to be fired through the smoothbore necessary for shot.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 19 2003, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Assuming Shadowrun makes any sense at all with its shotguns [...]

That's one hell of an assumption! :D

Search for "flechette penetration" or "flechette" with the name Raygun on the Old Forums if you want a few dozen extra reasons why SR flechette doesn't make sense.

Use Ammunition By Caliber -rules or similar, and you can also make ammunition prices per caliber and round type. Making up extra numbers is always fun.
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Laughlyn
post Aug 20 2003, 10:54 PM
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Arethusa

Slugs fired through a rifled barrel (both regular slugs and sabot) are similar in action to what Shadowrun uses for ranges. Smooth bore shotguns firing a rifled slug suck in a big way. The accuracy just isn't there. You go from firing in 2.5in pattern (5 shots in rifled barrel) to a 3in pattern at 50yds with rapidly growing pattern.

So it's pretty much one or the other. Granted you could use a rifled barrel for short range shooting using shot (to include buckshot). But again that's short range, the action of the pellets spinning causes the pattern to open up way too much. Or a smooth bore to fire slugs at short range.
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