Fletchette Ammo Question Options

[Arethusa]

I was under the impression that rifled slugs offered fairly decent accuracy and that a rifled slug gun pushed the shotgun platform well beyond its normal range?

Still, assuming a smoothbore shotgun firing slugs is high inaccurate (a situation I'd been led to believe only really happened with unrifled slugs): looking at this from the perspective of a combat shotgun carrying soldier, the versatility of being able to switch between shot and slugs— the latter of which not really seeing much use outside of breaching— is a lot more beneficial than the range offered by a rifled slug barrel. On top of that is the fact that a rifled barrel will be shredded by shot after a couple hundred rounds at best.

Of course, all this is kind of moot. Slugs in SR are the default ammo and shot's been thrown out. I'd say it's fair to assume that the slugs of 2060 have significantly improved rifling, allowing them to be effectively fired from a smoothbore with effective results.

[Laughlyn]

Nope, refiled slugs in a smoothbore still suck. That's why they offer rifled barrels in shotguns. Second the cup for the shot does wonders for saving the rifling in the weapon.

I'm not going to make any excuses for morons who wrote up the gun system. It's not realisic, they didn't try hard enough, and they've make no attemp to fix it. The fact is shotgun make poor slug throwers compared to rifle. Use the shot gun for what it's supposed to be used for, close combat fire fights. The only reason people don't use buck shot in Shadowrun is because of those idiotic flechette damage rules. Yet another rule they pulled from their fifth point of contact.

[Cursedsoul]

Wouldn't Fletchette ammo (Or Glazer, Or Mercury) make sense for called shots to say, the face or some other unarmored area?

I don't THINK the BBB says anything about negation of armor when calling a shot, but it makes perfect sense to me...

So take a 9M pistol loaded with fletchette. Against armor it sucks monkey nuts, but a called shot is different....

Most people aren't wearing helmets, so wouldn't you get the +1DL bonus?

So you get 9M +1DL Fletchette +1DL Called Shot = 9D attack, no armor

Assuming I'm wrong and the BBB second option for hitting sub-sections will negate armor not worn on the part in question...you still get a BASE of 9S, which is tough nuggets to resist without help.

Speaking of Fletchette, why bother with it when you can get, at half the price (at chargen anyways...) Mercury rounds which do the same thing but don't suck against barriers. Even if you aren't blowing up doors, you still get twice the amount of ammo for the same cost.

[Arethusa]

The canon rules don't allow for negating armor with a called shot. As I believe has been previously stated before, the Awakening gave everyone an armored face.

[Cursedsoul]

I have missed those topics obviously.

Oh well, yet another reason why the people who developed Shadowrun's rules need a swift kick in the face and why house rules just kick untolds amount of ass.

[motorfirebox]

yeah, i mean, you're spinning it--centrifugal force + shot pattern = whiff!

if it's of any interest, the rules can be twisted so that called shots ignoring armor is an acceptable interpretation. as laughlyn argues, it weirds up the armor values, but the system is whacked either way; pick your poison.

[Arethusa]

[Laughlyn]

Cursed Soul

No actually a swift kick to the face can be done. You simply can't shoot around armor.

Not to defend the system in the game, but with a serious revamp of the weapon rules and armor system. Short of that, ignoring armor abusing the system that's in place.

[Game2BHappy]

[Laughlyn]

For those of us who don't want to banter words back and forth. Or those people who mention rules pages, but don't give much else.

Ranged combat cannot ignore armor, even with a called shot.
For the purpose of delivering drugs only, ranged combat can deliver a drug dose that bypasses the targets armor.

Unarmed Combat can ignore armor, with a called shot.

[Fortune]

[Game2BHappy]

[Laughlyn]

Whatever dude. The point is and always will be…how do you play your game? Hey if you to bust the combat system allow anyone to make a called shot with a ranged weapon to ignore armor, do it. I don't care. See how long it takes before the runners are covered head to toe in armor or they don’t want to play.

Besides which, stretching the imagination to include words that you want isn't what in the core rules. The rules allow you do a called shot to ignore armor for chemicals. Even if the round hits an unarmored area, you still apply armor. That's the whole point of an abstract combat system. This is not Cyberpunk 2020, Battle Lords of 23rd Century, Fringeworthy, Twilight 2000, etc.

[Laughlyn]

Forgot something.

That portion of the rule you quoted, what context is it used in? Does it refer to melee combat, ranged combat (not), chemical weapons ranged combat, etc?

The more you elaborate, the more your point gets across. By making vague statements without context you simply don’t make a good point or a impression. It appears that you're intentionally trying to leave something out that doesn't support your cause.

[Game2BHappy]

Here's another interesting aspect of the quote - I just skimmed the next line at first, but I'll put the full quote in to discuss it.

[Fortune]

[Cochise]

First: I'm no fan of the various inconsistant forms of armor negation possibilities (melee, chem tech rules and armor in cyberlimbs) within the otherwise abstract damage system of SR. It just f*cks up the system royally

Second:

[Austere Emancipa...]

I wonder, how many times has this exact same topic been discussed with the exact same quotes, the exact same words, per year at best? Apparently at least 3, but has that record been beaten in the Early Years, just after SR3 and M&M came out?

This thread is probably the latest with that quote from the old forums.

[Game2BHappy]

[Laughlyn]

Here's another interesting aspect of the quote - I just skimmed the next line at first, but I'll put the full quote in to discuss it.

[Talondel]

Laughlyn, I love watching you "work."

No, really. I mean, who else can say "this isn't worth arguing over, play your game like you want to play your game. Oh, but if you don't play your game like I play mine, you're ruining it and you're wrong."

That's beautiful. For real. You're an artist.

Point being, people, this is a conversation that's happened a hundred times before, and will happen a hundred times again if we're dumb enough to let it. Some people like to house rule it so that you can bypass armor and shoot someone in the face, some people like to play by the letter of the rules and not let that happen.

Any chance we can leave it at that, and not resort to claiming one method is better than the other?

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Fortune]

[Cursedsoul]

Sorry for causing all the ruckus guys. I didn't mean it. :(

You guys are forgetting cover too.

Anyone standing in the middle of the street when guns are going off SHOULD be shot in the face.

Its always possible to simply add to the TN. Ideally you can take a heavy pistol, fire a called shot for 9S damage with a TN of 3, assuming SL2 and one simple action of aiming.

That could get out of hand...but whose to say you can't focus entirely on the subject at hand? Facing down some go-gangers would be rather distracting, with them swing chains/chairs/people, whooping and holloring. Not to mention whatever the hell else is going on.

Afraid your players will abuse armor negation? Simply counter that with some ingenuity.

And like someone mentioned (forgive me, I forget who) the PCs wont like it when it happens to them...so they'll be damned tentative about combat in situations where this is likely.

[Laughlyn]

Talondel

I see you're still reading things that you want to and ignoring the rest. As I posted, "For those of us who don't want to banter words back and forth. Or those people who mention rules pages, but don't give much else." Then I gave the rules. Then the person in question continues to go on about how bypassing armor is cannon. So at the point I don't care how he plays his games. But when he tries to play his interpretation of why called shots are cannon, at that point I have to call "bullshit" and let the person know. At no point did he say that because of how he read the rules he'd make a house rule.