Guns - Dumpshock Forums

Guns, The Advancement

Gothic Rose View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 07:45 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803	So. Firstly, I'll say this: I'm not a gun person. Guns are nifty and all, and I like them, but I know little about them. I know a lot of people on this forum love them and are experts. That's why I bring this up. I often see people saying how guns dont necessarily advance that quickly - we still use guns from 100 years ago, etc, etc. And they apply this to Shadowrun. That's fine. I think it's bull. And there's a reason I think this. Take a look at the Ares Predator. Over the course of twenty in game years, it has gone through 4 variations - The Predator, the Predator II, III, and IV (In SR4). That, to me, screams that there's some manner of advancement that's a lot faster than what we have in real life. But I'm not terribly sure it makes 100% sense to say that gun technology is very slow in SR. In RL, yes, but not in Shadowrun.

Backgammon View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 07:55 PM Post #2
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600	Not at all. The various Predators were merely the same base gun with differant add-ons on (i.e. the smartlink). The "advancement" of a gun would require the developement of new and better rounds (new metals, new powder...), or new firing techniques, like the electric ignition and such. So yes, gun technology remains slow, but not at a stand-still. Gun gadgets, like smartlinks and new types of aiming modules, on the other hand, can be improved far more quickly.

Toptomcat View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 08:18 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112	Look at it this way: there are new versions of the 1911 Browning pistol being produced practically every month, but you can still outshoot somebody with the latest model with the made-in-1911 prototype without too much trouble.

Foreigner

Nov 12 2005, 08:25 PM

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Moving Target

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QUOTE (Toptomcat @ Nov 12 2005, 03:18 PM)

Look at it this way: there are new versions of the 1911 Browning pistol being produced practically every month, but you can still outshoot somebody with the latest model with the made-in-1911 prototype without too much trouble.

Um, *small* correction, Toptomcat:

No offense meant because, after all, the Model 1911 .45 automatic *IS* a John Moses Browning design, but the weapon was *produced* by *Colt*.

And I don't meant to insult anyone else, either, because I *do* know that there were subcontractors involved as well--Springfield, Remington-Rand, Smith-Corona, and Ithaca, to name but a few--but AFAIK, Colt made most of the wartime 1911s and 1911A1s.

Not to mention the plethora of 1911A1 "clones" made by other manufacturers.

;)

EDIT: Sorry, Kagetenshi, Raygun. I was primarily referring to *military* 1911s and 1911A1s. It didn't occur to me that the topic of discussion included the various civilian variations of the weapon.

--Foreigner

This post has been edited by Foreigner: Nov 13 2005, 05:45 PM

Musashi Forever

Nov 12 2005, 09:01 PM

Post #5

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Backgammon)

Not at all. The various Predators were merely the same base gun with differant add-ons on (i.e. the smartlink).

Rules-wise, you are correct, but the overall look of the Predator changed as each version came out. Just look for the pictures.

Toptomcat View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 09:10 PM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112	The point stands, though.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 09:25 PM Post #7
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Anyone with half a brain knows to ignore Shadowrun art. Or have you all forgotten rockethorse?

hyzmarca

Nov 12 2005, 09:37 PM

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Nov 12 2005, 02:45 PM)

So. Firstly, I'll say this: I'm not a gun person. Guns are nifty and all, and I like them, but I know little about them. I know a lot of people on this forum love them and are experts. That's why I bring this up.

I often see people saying how guns dont necessarily advance that quickly - we still use guns from 100 years ago, etc, etc. And they apply this to Shadowrun. That's fine.

I think it's bull.

And there's a reason I think this. Take a look at the Ares Predator. Over the course of twenty in game years, it has gone through 4 variations - The Predator, the Predator II, III, and IV (In SR4).

That, to me, screams that there's some manner of advancement that's a lot faster than what we have in real life. But I'm not terribly sure it makes 100% sense to say that gun technology is very slow in SR. In RL, yes, but not in Shadowrun.

Currently, Glock has models 17, 17L, 18, 18C, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 34, 35, 36. That certainly beats the Predator with only four models.
While these glocks have signifiacant cosmetic and practical differences no model is really more advanced than the other.

I would expect the Predator to be available in a variety of barrel lengths and callibers, the consequences of which can't be modeled well by the abstract combat system.

Eddie Furious View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 10:11 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519	The current incarnation of firearms will be around for a very long time. Chemical reaction accelerates projectile down rifled barrel, action works and a new potential chemical reaction and projectile take their respective places. How the process takes place and how many rounds can be carried as well as how well the rounds perform are all pretty much at around their maximum potential for the time being. Granted there have been leaps and bounds of advancement in things like electrical primers, binary propellants, caseless ammunition, bi-metal rounds, gas piston action and so on, but at the heart of it what we will see for the next little while is tinkering with what we have discovered and trying to find that best mixture. That is what the large variety in Glocks is all about. Slimline .45? Sure, Glock 36. Hi Cap .45? Got it, Glock 21. Want a Hi Cap fully auto 9mm? Right here we have the Glock 18. Want that same pistol with a muzzle compensator? Why we just have to pick up this Glock 18C. They are just trying to provide you with a pistol that will meet your needs that you will buy from them, rather than somebody else.

Kagetenshi

Nov 12 2005, 10:14 PM

Post #10

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QUOTE (Foreigner)

but Colt made the lion's share of the wartime 1911s and 1911A1s.

Idiom nazi: as per the original fable, "the lion's share" is everything. The usage to indicate merely "the larger part" is incorrect.

~J

otomik

Nov 12 2005, 10:26 PM

Post #11

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 12 2005, 09:37 PM)

Currently, Glock has models 17, 17L, 18, 18C, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 34, 35, 36. That certainly beats the Predator with only four models.

forgot the Glock 37, 38 and 39 the fullsize, compact and mini .45 GAP glocks respectively.

There has been some refinement, sometimes it takes a while for refinements to become the mainstream thing. In pistols, the Browning short recoil method has been common since 1911, the Browning-Petter method which is more common today got started on 1949 with the SIG P210 then appeared again in 1975 with the CZ75 and the SIG P220 (which simplified the machining). Glock stole the locking method with the simplified machining and applied it to the Glock series which popularized it in the 80's and by the nineties it's the standard (granted there's a few holdouts, Beretta like Apple).

a few refinements might appear

Natec Spectrum PCA which reduces weight, transfered heat and muzzle flash.
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwat...r/?s=2005_side3

More powerful cartridges can be fired comfortably with gas-operated pistols whether it's gas-delayed blowback for the weaker cartridges or a gas operated system like with the Desert Eagle or H&K MP7 (which miniturized a G36 basically).
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm

anyway the refinements aren't incredible since 1911, the US military just ordered 90,000 more M9 pistols which you could crudely describe as a hi-capacity Walther P-38/P-1. and what I really want for christmas is a Beretta Laramie Top-Break revolver, but i have been watching a lot of Firefly... http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20Stampe...ede/Laramie.htm

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Nov 12 2005, 11:12 PM Post #12
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Heh, the M9 as a high capacity Walther P38. That's hysterical.

Lindt

Nov 13 2005, 12:30 AM

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Foreigner @ Nov 12 2005, 03:25 PM)

but Colt made the lion's share of the wartime 1911s and 1911A1s.

Idiom nazi: as per the original fable, "the lion's share" is everything. The usage to indicate merely "the larger part" is incorrect.

~J

Now THATS some serious nazi-ing.

Siege

Nov 13 2005, 03:45 AM

Post #14

Dragon

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Obviously we're discussing relatively modern firearms.

A black powder musket still has the potential to kill a target, but fundamental differences in the weapon put it in a different class than modern weapons that can be grouped together.

The major areas of improvement in the last century have been in materials used to assemble the weapons - there have been mechanical innovations in the weapons themselves, but nothing as radical as, say, the self-contained cartridge which created created a discernable difference between powder weapons and "modern weapons."

None of the weapons demonstrated in SR have substantially differed from the fundamental principles behind all "modern" firearms - clip or magazine load and self-contained cartridge.

I will, of course, defer to any of the experts who wish to be more precise than my vague opinions.

-Siege

Edit:

QUOTE

Used by military and law enforcement units in more than 50 nations, the MP5 is firmly established as the world's pre-eminent submachine gun. Over 120 variants of the HK MP5 submachine gun are available to address the widest range of tactical requirements.

-From the HK website for the MP5 smg

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 13 2005, 03:56 AM Post #15
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	MP5: Gotta catch 'em all!

otomik

Nov 13 2005, 08:45 AM

Post #16

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Heh, the M9 as a high capacity Walther P38. That's hysterical.

care to elaborate?
same short recoil by locking block, double action trigger, open slide, safety/decocker on slide, alloy frame like the P1. sure there's plenty of refinements like dissasembly methods and lower barrel axis.

what are you expecting Gothic Rose in the way of developments? SR cars aren't light years ahead either.

Gothic Rose

Nov 13 2005, 09:24 AM

Post #17

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QUOTE (otomik)

what are you expecting Gothic Rose in the way of developments? SR cars aren't light years ahead either.

I dunno. I always assumed that a new gun model meant a more advanced gun model. Apparently, all it really means is a gun model with a different feature.

*shrug*

Raygun

Nov 13 2005, 12:12 PM

Post #18

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QUOTE (otomik)

There has been some refinement, sometimes it takes a while for refinements to become the mainstream thing. In pistols, the Browning short recoil method has been common since 1911, the Browning-Petter method which is more common today got started on 1949 with the SIG P210 then appeared again in 1975 with the CZ75 and the SIG P220 (which simplified the machining).

I would say that most modern semi-auto handguns (SIG-Sauer P220, Glock, HK USP, etc...) have a more direct lineage to the FN/Browning High Power than anything else as far as the method of locking goes (with the open lug below the chamber, rather than a closed cam; the HP came out in 1935, several years prior to the P210 and the Petter cam). Then SIG started the whole ejection port locking thing in 1975. That's pretty much where we are today and will likely continue to stay, so long as we continue to use cased cartridges at a similar power level. It's a very cost-effective way to make a locked breech semi-automatic pistol.

QUOTE

Glock stole the locking method with the simplified machining and applied it to the Glock series which popularized it in the 80's and by the nineties it's the standard (granted there's a few holdouts, Beretta like Apple).

With the Glock, the big improvement was the polymer frame (lighter weight), as well as the facts that it's very simple to use, very easy to maintain, and relatively cheap to manufacture. Glock pretty much lifted the locking system directly from the SIG-Sauer P series, which had been around for a while before Gaston started tinkering. The trigger mechanism in the Glock was totally new, though, and variations on that DAO theme have been coming along ever since (S&W Sigma/M&P, Walther P99, Steyr M, Springfield XD, HK P2000, CZ100, etc...).

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Heh, the M9 as a high capacity Walther P38. That's hysterical.

Yep. He's right. That's pretty much what it is.

QUOTE (Foreigner)

And I don't meant to insult anyone else, either, because I *do* know that there were subcontractors involved as well--Springfield, Remington-Rand, Smith-Corona, and Ithaca, to name but a few--but Colt made the lion's share of the wartime 1911s and 1911A1s.

Not to mention commercial manufacturers like Kimber, Springfield Armory, Para Ordnance, Kahr, Armscor... Hell, even Smith & Wesson, SIG, and CZ make 1911s now. Then there are the high-end "custom" 1911 manufacturers like Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Caspian, STI, Guncrafter, Olympic... The list is incredibly long.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Nov 13 2005, 05:00 PM Post #19
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Even the polymer frame had been done before, with HKs attempt at a machine pistol in the early seventies, now what was that thing called? The VP70, iirc.

Fix-it

Nov 13 2005, 05:17 PM

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QUOTE

With the Glock, the big improvement was the polymer frame (lighter weight), as well as the facts that it's very simple to use, very easy to maintain, and relatively cheap to manufacture.

My networking proff carries a glock for exactly these reasons.

I would go for a sig sauer though.

Adarael View Member Profile	Nov 13 2005, 09:33 PM Post #21
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566	Why does your networking professor carry a handgun at all? Is he worried about being attacked by angry grad students or something?

Raygun

Nov 13 2005, 09:54 PM

Post #22

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Nov 13 2005, 05:00 PM)

Even the polymer frame had been done before, with HKs attempt at a machine pistol in the early seventies, now what was that thing called? The VP70, iirc.

True. The HK P9/P9S also had a polymer frame. But they were also relatively complex and expensive designs (good ol' German engineering; good stuff, not cheap). Glock just took a bunch of good ideas that were already out there, made a simple, safe trigger mechanism to go along with them, and slapped it all together in a package that was relatively easy and inexpensive to manufacture, using a lot of stamped sheet steel for internal parts, injection-molded plastics for the frame, and simplified machining processes for the slide (which gives it that blocky look) and barrel. Cheap, simple, effective.

Shrapnel

Nov 13 2005, 10:10 PM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Adarael @ Nov 13 2005, 04:33 PM)

Why does your networking professor carry a handgun at all?
Is he worried about being attacked by angry grad students or something?

Does your car have a spare tire?

Do you happen to have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers?

Some people just prefer to be prepared...

Arethusa

Nov 13 2005, 10:19 PM

Post #24

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QUOTE (Raygun)

The HK P9/P9S also had a polymer frame. But they were also relatively complex and expensive designs (good ol' German engineering; good stuff, not cheap).

Well, in a world of compromise, all that tactical uncompromising costs extra.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Nov 13 2005, 10:23 PM Post #25
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	I ride a bike or take the bus, and no, there are no functioning smoke detectors (so sue me) or fire extinguishers in this apartment. But then violent tire blow-outs and aggravated apartment fires are much less common around here. I'd say let's just stick to the actual topic, but it seems the actual topic has been thoroughly handled already. Maybe it's best we just shut up instead? Arethusa: If only more than 5-ish people here got that joke!

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