 Perception tests while astral? |
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 Nov 14 2005, 09:09 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659  |
It says to assume that you see things unless they take pains to hide. If I'm not moving and generally hiding from normal perception am I considered taking pains to hide from astral perception too, or no?
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Nov 14 2005, 09:15 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
I would say yes.
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Nov 14 2005, 09:18 PM
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#3
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I would also say yes.
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Nov 14 2005, 09:21 PM
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#4
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I would also say yes.
As for your original statement though, keep in mind (at least in SR3) that spotting MUNDANE things becomes MORE difficult. So if someone has a gun on him that he's not trying to hide, identifying it as a gun may still not be easy for you. Astral sight is superior when spotting living and magical things, but inferior when spotting anything non-magical. |
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Nov 14 2005, 10:35 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
I would say : it depends.
Hide between trees, it will be very efficient (tree is a living being thus it will actually give you a cover even in astrall) Hide within crush paperboard, I would say no, because they are hardly noticed in astral, while you have a aura (even if not as bright as a awaken one's or spirit, it is still colorfull) I will resume like that : Magical things are obvious Living things are visible object are translucent |
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Nov 14 2005, 10:46 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i disagree. if objects were translucent, then you could ignore/reduce visibility modifiers for shooting through barriers by astral perception, which i don't think is the way things are supposed to work. however, if they were not fully covered, i think it could certainly be very obvious that they are there... ie, if even a part of them is exposed, you would perceive the "color" amongst the grayness.
or at least, that's how i would describe it... things that are not alive or magical tend to be kind of 'dim', dull, gray, pale, monotone/colorless kind of deal. living things tend to be more colorful and bright, and magical things are usually very colorful and very bright (with the exact amount depending on how strong the magic is, naturally). to some extent, this "brightness" can pierce clothing, since heavy clothing inflicts no penalty to assensing tests... however, if you were to take a flashlight and press it up against the clothing, you would also be able to see the light through that as well... [edit] i would also add that i feel that, simply by spending so much time close the the person's aura, clothing tends to begin to take on and reflect the aspects of the aura as well, to some extent... [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Nov 14 2005, 10:49 PM |
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Nov 14 2005, 10:47 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
normal vision rules apply to astral by and large,
you can't see through things you can't see through in the phsyical plane on the astral, actually on the astral you can't even see through glass, you can however pass through em = ) |
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Nov 14 2005, 11:01 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Damn, you are absolutly correct !
For clothes or thin cover VERY close to the body, I would state that it doesn't stop the vision, because I think the aura isn't only IN the body, but is a bit out (5 or 10 cms ?) of it as well. Does that make sense to you ? |
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Nov 14 2005, 11:33 PM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Unless things have changed dramatically in the way the Astral works since SR3, you can see through glass, and other clear objects on the Astral. |
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Nov 14 2005, 11:46 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, i think someone here even mentioned the specific reference to previous rules in the last month or so, but my Search is coming up empty. Something that is transparent/translucent on the physical plane appears more or less so astrally. If this wasn't the case you'd normally see nothing on the astral because all that damn air would be blocking your LOS. 8) |
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Nov 15 2005, 03:19 PM
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#11
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I thought in SR2 or before you couldn't see through glass. In my games though, I don't let astral vision see through glass. It doesn't make sense that you can't see through paper walls but you can see through glass if you're seeing using 'psychic powers'. Last I heard, glass isn't great for transmitting psychic energies, and if it is, the amount of coloring in it shouldn't have any effect. In general though, full cover by objects will be almost as effective against astral sight (you have to make sure you're FULLY covered. A little bit of you peeking through will be much easier to spot.) HOwever, camouflage does nothing unless it's really ingenious. |
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Nov 15 2005, 03:25 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
The rule of thumb has been (at least, since SR3) if you can see through it in the real world, you can see through it on the astral plane.
With the exception of wards. |
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Nov 15 2005, 06:11 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
the closest reference I could find was "if you're in a opaque object you can't see through it" but that doesn't mean by default if in a transperant object you can see through (on the astral)
I checked mits and the street grimiore and came up empty. Novel refrences are plenty where there's a building (probably with windows!) that they don't want to look into for fear of setting off wards, since wards generally in that setting are close or exactly the diameter of the room they could see them through the window on the astral if you were able to see through objects on the astral. Glass for all purposes related to the astral is the same as a brick wall since there is no light on the astral plane. |
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Nov 15 2005, 08:50 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
Astral perception is not a visual sense, it's a physic one.
Think of it as magical radar. When you think of it that way, it's easy to see how you can't see through windows. This is the logic behind people masking their auras. They send out 'false signals' like an ECM suite. They don't actually put on a "magical mask". |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:04 PM
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#15
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
According to SR3, in the rulebook under 'astral perception', it does say quite clearly that astral perception CAN see through anything you could see through normally, as long as its not electronic and isn't blocked by an 'invisible' object (something with invisibility cast on it, wards, unmanifested spirits, etc.)
Anything else is a house rule. I will say disallowing sight through anything PHYSICAL, transparent or otherwise, is a good house rule (it makes more sense than the existing rule), but it's still only a house rule. |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:06 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
I feel uncomfortable with googles (opticals) helping to cast spell on a distant target, and the same googles avoiding to see the target in astral space.
But I see the point and didn't manage to find any objection in the BB. Should be in a FAQ ... It actually is : http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml#5 "Is glass/clear plastic see-through when astrally perceiving? The basic rule of thumb is this: if you can see through it in the physical world, then you can see through it on the astral plane. If you can't see through it physically, then you can't see through it astrally, either. The only real exceptions are astral barriers (and other astral things), which are at least partially opaque on the astral, but physically invisible." EDIT: I should upgrade my reflexes ... Nezumi is faster :cyber: |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:11 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
This means surely that magic sight googles allow to astrally perceive ...
It is quite a cool object !!! |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:18 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Official Shadowrun FAQ disagrees. While this is the same Shadowrun FAQ that a lot of people have expressed disagreement with it on certain issues in the past, the transparancy of the astral shadows of an item that's transparent in the physical plane was not one of the disputed issues, as far as I know. Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the astral shadow consists of the "essential nature" of whatever the object being shadowed is. Being see-thru is a big part of the essential nature of glass. |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:19 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
up to SR2 alll non-living objects were opaque on the astral, though there is some strength to the fact that objects that are thin enough may be transparent (like rice-paper screens for instance)
SR3 I'm unsure, but I think objects were transparent astrally if they were so in the mundane world, by canon. SR4 I'm prertty sure goes by that last statement, though I lack a page reference atm. |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:20 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
Sorry thought this was an SR4 discussion board. For 4th ed it explains how astral perception is NOT visual sense on page 182... and how all non-living objects are grey and lifeless on page 181, so clear glass in astral space is actually a dull grey color. Regardless, the way the fluff reads in most of SR, clear glass is a thing of the past and most buildings/cars are polarized. |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:24 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Does that apply to a mirror ??? Can you see the reflection of an astral "image" ? another question, could be nice for one of my character : can a astrally projecting/perceiving mage record with simsens the perception of astral world ? (actually I would like to be able to record some nice view of ... Chicago) Pretty scary ? |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:29 PM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
No. On playback it reads like a simsense of a coma patient with an unusually active (but context-less) emotive track. |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:30 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
1: most of the world is the same from sr3 to sr4, so the sr3 FAQ is relevant. 2: you are wrong, in sr4 astral perception include a visual sense (even if described as different and not linked to the PHYSICAL visual sense) - the verb used is always "to see" for the visual astral sense. 3 could a glass polarised be polarised in astral too ? |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:32 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
So the body will just record pain and dammage taken while projecting. but while a simple astral perception ? (more dangerous tour of chicago ?) |
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Nov 15 2005, 09:42 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,887 |
Um.... this didn't catch your eye at the top of the FAQ?
Special Note: Currently, all rules-related questions refer to Shadowrun, Third Edition. Shadowrun, Fourth Edition rules questions will be added in a future update. As for astral sense being linked to vision, that is incorrect as SR4 describes blind people being able "to see" with astral perception, and being able "to hear" even though they are deaf. This is all described on page 182 of the rulebook. Your not seeing anything, your sensing it, and the picture appears in your mind. Also emotion is much more detailed. One would think you could read a love letter in astral space, or a death threat...but road signs and techincal data would be very blurry. ....actually that would be a great concept for an character, blind, deaf phyiscal adept that only sees astrally....... |
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