Mystic Adepts broken ability, Spell knock out and Unarmed Options

[SHINJO STYLA]

Ok i have a HUMAN mystic adept with magic 6 with 3 points in mystic and 3 in adept.
he has killing hands and critical strike(4) and mystic armor (2) and attribute boost.

He has taken the mystic spirit, wise warrior(+2 dice with all combat rolls). and specialized in combat spells with a 2 in socery for a total of 9 dice to cast spells.(usually 3-4 hits and spends edge to make it so)
all spells are combat oriented and he has focused his character on dealing stun, ie he dosent want to kill anyone if he dosent have to.

He also has Unarmed comabat (5) specializing in martial arts (7) with an unboosted agility of 5, but usually gets 2 hits with his boost taking him to 7agi.

HOw would you deal with him casting the spell Knock out which requires a touch to cast. He always casts it at 12 + the 3-4 hits = 15-16s. The drain goes to only 3 boxes which he usually only takes 1-0 stun from after the drain due to drain foci and a nice body and logic.

The spell takes a complex action so how can you touch some one in the same turn, so he pays 1 edge (of 6) to act in the 2nd turn. then unloads with a str 5/2 =3 plus crit strike 4 = 7 then rolls 7 unarmed+ 7 boosted att. + 2 from the spirit warrior for a 14 dice pool which he usually gets 5-6 hits for taking his damage to 12-13 stun from the punch being the touch part of the spell than the spell dose another 15-16s. Knocking almost anyone out. Not to mention he has a stelath of 4 with a int of 5. for 9 on a stealth roll. and if he is he suprises for 2 more dice.

How would you call the damage to be absorbed? two rolls one roll either way he is dealing 27-29s. before dodge and body rolls. Now I see the spell as possibly being dodged since it is touch, but the spell is mana based only giving the opponent will to absorb the spell,but how can you dodge the spell when it is touch and he is like martial arts boy rolling 16 dice to hit, so i can say they can dodge to lower the physical hit but they are screwed on the will power only roll due to the spell hitting on mana.

now to reall screw you up the spell is an instant spell, the spell casting is a full action so how can it be instant, does he have to sustain it till he touches some one?

obviously he has found a very powerful and devestating combo Help me?

[Squinky]

Are you saying that your mentor wise warrior adds to all combat rolls? If so, the main book states that it adds to combat spells, not combat in general....

[SHINJO STYLA]

well that helps alittle but still reduces him only 2 dice on the to hit and i still need help with the damage and how to figure out if all he is doing is possible, but by book interpretations he doesnt even have to wait anoter pass to perform the spell i just imposed that on him.

[Lilt]

Firstly, you can't cast the spell at force 12 as you only have a magic of 3 as far as magical skills are concerned. As spell force is limited to 2x magic, that limits you to force 6.

You get to attempt to deliver the knock out spell for free as part of the casting action. That doesn't allow you to make a proper unarmed attack as part of the action, only to attempt to make contact.

The wise warrior only adds dice to combat spells (and detection spells), not all combat rolls so he wouldn't get the bonus on the melee attack.

The opponent would get an attempt to dodge the attack (unless surprised). The average number of successes from 14 dice (12 given that Wise Warrior doesn't quite work how you thought it did) is 4 rather than 5-6. The enemy also gets a willpower test to attempt to resist the spell. The enemy is likely to have a mutch higher initiative than you unless they're an unaugmented human.

Even if it were possible to deliver the two attacks simultaneously, they would be resisted separately.

I'd expect anybody spending two edge per combat round to beat an opponent who spends none.

[SHINJO STYLA]

thanks, for the help so what would he rol to touch them? still un armed just not adding in the unarmed damage?

[Lilt]

[FrankTrollman]

[Lilt]

[Squinky]

I'm with Lilt here. I thought the rules specifically addressed this (In Lilt's favor).

[FrankTrollman]

[Lilt]

Fair enough, debait ended :)

[Squinky]

My understanding of that example is that the characters magic is limited to 3 when casting and summoning.....What am I not seeing here?

[FrankTrollman]

[Abschalten]

Just passing some info along, a friend of mine emailed Rob Boyle himself to ask about the Force cap on spells for Mystic Adepts.

Rob said that however many points a Mystic Adept sets aside for Magic is their effective cap for casting spells. If you take 6 Magic points, and you put 3 into PPs and 3 into Magician skills, then you can cast up to Force 6 with your spells.

I think it's bullshit, myself, but this is from the man himself.

[Aku]

yu think it's bullshit that you are capped by the numbers that you choose? if an adept or caster chooses to take 3 points of magic loss, than they do are stuck with that rating of 3. the punishment of diversification is being spread out.

[Siege]

Bulldrek or not depends on where you apply the cap.

Obviously one side holds that only Power Points actually put into "Magic" count.

The other side believes that Power Points put into Magic, regardless of whether or not they've been spent on Adept Powers or not is irrelevant.

There is a basis for the second side because Adepts are considered to have an unaltered Magic rating, regardless of points spent. If, for example, an Adept with a Magic Rating of 4 spends her Power Points, she is still treated as having a Magic Rating of 4 for determining power ratings, initiation and so on.

-Siege

[blakkie]

[Abschalten]

I will have to get the actual discourse from my friend. I was just given the summary of it.

Personally, I'm thinking about letting a Mystic Adept's full magic rating determine their maximum Force in my games. I've built a few Mystic Adepts, and I haven't found it to be game-breaking yet. To follow the rules as said by Rob himself, the Mystic Adept still sucks like the Magician's Way Adept in SR3.

[Feshy]

[blakkie]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Abschalten]

Alright, talked to my friend, and here it is. As per request, I cut out some non-essential dialogue between them (nothing to do with rules) and posted only the pertinent information. The quoted text is the friend's question, and the non-quoted text is Rob's response.

--------------------------------------------------

"---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shadowrun Info <info@shadowrunrpg.com>
Date: Nov 6, 2005 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun 4th edition question
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.com

[cut out some introductory crap, on to the meat]

>question I have, though, is about Mystic adept in general - Since they can
>split their spell pool and everything things can get complicated. there is
>a paragraph on the second page of the mystic adept section that says that
>For All purposes, including the limits of Adept powers, the mystic adept
>counts as his max magic. so if he's spent 4 points on Adept abilities, and
>only 2 on casting, does that mean he can Force 6 spells without flinching?

[cut out more background info crap, non-essential]

I'm not sure what you mean about splitting the spell pool ...

Nope, basically the Magic he has allocated towards magician skills counts
for all aspects of those skills. So in your example, the max Force he can
cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.


:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com"

[Earthwalker]

I couldnt find any thing in SR4 rules for touch spells. But I would work it similar to SR3. Where to cast a touch spell in combat you must be close enuff to touch your target and to cast the spell you make an unarmed attack, with +2 dice as you are only trying to get close enuff to mix your aura with theres. If the attack success you cast and take drain. If it fails then you take drain.

The only damage done is for the spell and not damage for unarmed combat.

Its strange rules but work for me.

[blakkie]

[Halabis]

Also, in the unarmed combat section is has rules for trying to just touch some one. Basicly you get +2 dice to the test. It also says under touched ranged casting that you may attempt to touch the target (as per melee combat rules) as a free action when casting a touch range spell, as it is considered part of the casting. Now all you need is finglerless shock gloves and you have the makings of a true munchkin. =)