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> Shadowland, What of her?
Gothic Rose
post Nov 16 2005, 10:04 AM
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Alright, so I know what happened to Captain Chaos (bless his soul), but what actually happened to Shadowland? Was it destroyed, or did it come back, bigger, better, and stronger than ever? By 2070, is Shadowland active?
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fistandantilus4....
post Nov 16 2005, 10:52 AM
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I'd say it's probably a fair assumption that it made it back, since the beginning of SR4 is done in the contect of a post by FastJack, meanning Shadowland Seattle. In System Failure, they'd managed to save the Nexus (barely) and a number of other shadowland nodes. So even if Seattle's had gone down, they'd certainly have it back up within the next five years.
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Eggs
post Nov 16 2005, 10:57 AM
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I can't really envision a Shadowrun world without Shadowland. I'm sure its up... the question really is, who's running it?
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fistandantilus4....
post Nov 16 2005, 11:37 AM
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FastJack I believe, since he's the one posting in the beginnings of SR4.

Does anyone know if Bash actually bought the farm BTW, or was he just dumped by the worm/chimera thing?
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JRDobbs
post Nov 16 2005, 03:01 PM
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If I had to conjecture, I would say that Shadowland Seattle now exists as a RFID tag underneath a manhole cover behind Fastjack's favorite McHughs and within walking distance of a Stuffer Shack....

Any guesses as to how Shadowland Seattle is going to change its access procedures to accomodate the AR NWO?
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Lindt
post Nov 16 2005, 03:38 PM
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I somehow dont think that the major data havens will be doing much with AR. Unless your prone to breaking into a pretty damm secure location and meandering around their server farms. Which would be a fun discription to work out though.
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Teulisch
post Nov 16 2005, 08:36 PM
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i think its a bit more complex than that. Everytime we see a major crash, the nature of the matrix changes. I think magic is having a direct impact on the matrix. Its starting to approach the astral plane in a lot of similarities, and its special users are becoming more like mages.

Shadowland has always been similar to a higher astral plane- you need to go to some effort to find it. likewise the AAA mainframes are similar in the dificulty of reaching their core.

and just because AR is common dosent mean that the old lines of comunication went away. you still have miles of fiberoptic all over the place.
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Azralon
post Nov 17 2005, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE (Teulisch)
i think its a bit more complex than that. Everytime we see a major crash, the nature of the matrix changes. I think magic is having a direct impact on the matrix. Its starting to approach the astral plane in a lot of similarities, and its special users are becoming more like mages.


By my guesstimations:

Shadowrun magic seems to work a lot like World of Darkness magic -- If enough people believe in something strongly enough, then it becomes "true." Apparently even retroactively true, since the linear relationship between Mr. Cause and Ms. Effect breaks down in the face of SR metaphysics.

Was there always a Dog totem since the beginning of time, and gifted people had to learn how to commune with it? Or did enough (mana-powered) belief spontaneously create this entity and "program" it into thinking it was eternal?

For purposes of flavor, this "chicken or egg" question is wonderfully moot.

But then you have people using some weird new form of magic that works only on this new manmade consensual reality. Are we supposed to believe that "Matrix spirits" always existed somewhere from the beginning of time, and just now humans are learning about them? Or is this just further evidence that humanity's collective unconscious is effectively God?

No matter what the in-game Ultimate Truth may be, the framework of Shadowrun's metaverse lets things exist for no other reason than "it sounds neat."

That's 100% good news for players, since we gamers love having all sorts of nifty options when putting together a particular character with a specific style and personality.

~~~~~

So, is Shadowland still around (in some form)? I bet it is, for no other reason than "it sounds neat."
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Gothic Rose
post Nov 17 2005, 05:46 PM
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Good answer, Azralon. That's really kinda true.
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Eggs
post Nov 18 2005, 12:11 AM
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And so we have an answer. Shadowland is a live and well... on its own metaplane in AR.
...
And CC and is its spirit totem.
[Edit] my first 4th edition character will be a Captain Chaos shaman. ;) [/edit]
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Grinder
post Nov 18 2005, 08:14 AM
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Come over to the Drop Bear thread and your first SR4 char will be a Drop Bear shaman.
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Azralon
post Nov 18 2005, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Eggs)
And so we have an answer. Shadowland is a live and well... on its own metaplane in AR.
...
And CC and is its spirit totem.
[Edit] my first 4th edition character will be a Captain Chaos shaman. ;) [/edit]

If enough people think so, I guess. :P
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Jrayjoker
post Nov 18 2005, 05:29 PM
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Isn't Fastjack dead? Or did I miss someone mentioning that here?
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Sepherim
post Nov 18 2005, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (Azralon)
Shadowrun magic seems to work a lot like World of Darkness magic -- If enough people believe in something strongly enough, then it becomes "true." Apparently even retroactively true, since the linear relationship between Mr. Cause and Ms. Effect breaks down in the face of SR metaphysics.

I wouldn't bet on that approach. People didn't believe in magic in 2011 and it still manifested. And IEs exist even though people don't believe in them. And so on...

In SR the appearance of something goes before people believing in it. Back in Virtual Realities 2.0, Otaku existed, but even among the deckers they were only a rumor, a ghost-in-the-machine story.
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warrior_allanon
post Nov 18 2005, 06:34 PM
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the spirits and totems have always been there, it was just required that the mana level rise high enough to allow manifestation. Once there was enough mana to allow manifestation, the people who believed and tried to commune with the spirits and totems found they were able to. and thus it came to be

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blakkie
post Nov 18 2005, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Nov 18 2005, 11:29 AM)
Isn't Fastjack dead? Or did I miss someone mentioning that here?

Not as of the SR4 BBB, he's the "author" of the entire history chapter. Taking over for CC, which is why some people assume he is also running Shadowland.
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Azralon
post Nov 18 2005, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Sepherim @ Nov 18 2005, 01:59 PM)
People didn't believe in magic in 2011 and it still manifested.

People did too believe in magic. Lots of people, and not just the third-world countries and fringe cults.

Anywhere there's religion, there are people who believe in the supernatural. Even the atheists and agnostics who have "lucky underwear" are subscribing to a degree of magic belief.

The trick was that the mana levels had to cycle back up enough to where magic could consistently work again for those who were sensitive enough to it. If the Earthdawn precedent holds, then eventually the world will be dripping with so much mana that even the most mundane slob will be able to use the stuff.

Of course, at that point the horoi will come eat our souls (again), but we'll cross that metaplanar bridge when we come to it.

~~~~~

Besides, I'm not suggesting that the belief in magic is what creates it in the first place. I'm saying that belief structures how magic manifests itself.

Its presence or not seems to rely on that 10,000 year mana cycle thing that separates the ages (or "Worlds"), no matter our opinions on it.
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Eyeless Blond
post Nov 18 2005, 07:31 PM
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And by that reasoning, technomancers are just a peculiar form of awakened, who use their awakened-ness to alter wireless signals instead of mana(spellcasters) or their own bodies(adepts). This is annoying, as I kinda liked the idea of the Otaku being something new rather than mages with different hats, but it's really the only way of explainning:

1) How your brain ban become a powerful wireless transceiver without an obvious physical alteration to its structure... and without giving you brain cancer, but that's a problem with all wireless cyberware.
2) Why putting machines in your body makes you *less* in-tune with the machines you interact with outside your body.
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Azralon
post Nov 18 2005, 07:34 PM
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It also explains why getting 5+ hits when assensing someone can ping them as a technomancer.

I blame the second (and third) Matrix movies. :)
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Ancient History
post Nov 18 2005, 07:37 PM
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The fallacy of pattern recognition is the human desire to connect everything. Theories of parallel convergence or superficial similarities are put aside in favor of systems of unified thought. If anything, the single unifying factor between Awakened and technomancer is that they are metahuman - and thus subscribe to metahuman paradigms of thought in terms of how they view their abilities and place. Do you see the technomancers as Awakened because you want to define them in terms you already know?
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blakkie
post Nov 18 2005, 07:41 PM
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That'd be the same tendancy that brought the authors to use very similar mechanics? ;)

But yes, i'm with you AH. Just refering to them as another flavour of awakened is somewhat overlooking a difference. Technomancer's body chemistry is altered from metahuman norms in a noticable way.
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Azralon
post Nov 18 2005, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 18 2005, 03:37 PM)
The fallacy of pattern recognition is the human desire to connect everything. Theories of parallel convergence or superficial similarities are put aside in favor of systems of unified thought.

Very relevant points. In fact, they end up supporting the "collective unconscious as God" concept.

The previously dissimiliar traditions of hermetics, shamans, druids, houngans, and so forth have recently "merged" into a more unified magical whole with relatively minor operational differences. So there is precedent for the otaku to likewise follow suit and become the more "mage-like" technomancers.

Do I see technos as oddly Awakened just because my human brain has a (necessary) pattern-matching addiction? Absolutely. SR4 is supposed to have a more globally unified game mechanic, so from a metagame standpoint that theory is reinforced.

Reinforced, but thankfully never capable of being proven. Any FanPro writer can come out one day and decide that technomancers are the results of a deal between ancient Martian aliens and Deus, thereby blowing any theories we have out of the proverbial water. :)

~~~~~

P.S.: Mana permanently altering body chemistry has precedent, too: UGE and goblinization. And SURGE, if that's still within accepted continuity.
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blakkie
post Nov 18 2005, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Azralon @ Nov 18 2005, 01:49 PM)
Very relevant points. In fact, they end up supporting the "collective unconscious as God" concept.

No, it "reveals" to us the conscious God known as Fanpro. :P

QUOTE
Do I see technos as oddly Awakened just because my human brain has a (necessary) pattern-matching addiction?  Absolutely.  SR4 is supposed to have a more globally unified game mechanic, so from a metagame standpoint that theory is reinforced.


However they unified combat spells and firearms, so does that mean anyone that shoots is awakened and that a rifle is just a spell?

It's like the magic being hard, codified numbers imposing itself on the IC notion that magic is relatively unknown.

QUOTE
P.S.: Mana permanently altering body chemistry has precedent, too: UGE and goblinization. And SURGE, if that's still within accepted continuity.


But it does not in anyway preclude outside influence, mundane nor magical.
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Eggs
post Nov 18 2005, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE
The trick was that the mana levels had to cycle back up enough to where magic could consistently work again for those who were sensitive enough to it. If the Earthdawn precedent holds, then eventually the world will be dripping with so much mana that even the most mundane slob will be able to use the stuff.

I doubt this'll happen in the Sixth world. The basic idea, however, seems to hold some weight. The more the time line progesses, the more *everything* in Shadowrun seems to become magical, from shamans to mages to shedim to otaku to technomage.
God, I can't wait for the enchanted orichalcum move-by-wire system :D
Or the matrix free spirit with a gateway power :love:
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Azralon
post Nov 18 2005, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Nov 18 2005, 03:57 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Nov 18 2005, 01:49 PM)
Very relevant points. In fact, they end up supporting the "collective unconscious as God" concept.

No, it "reveals" to us the conscious God known as Fanpro. :P

Your post should have just stopped there, since that's the only truth that matters.

What really sucks is that God is a committee with imperfect QA. :) I mean that both in the Shadowrun metaphysics sense as well as the FanPro publishing sense.

EDIT:

QUOTE (blakkie)
However they unified combat spells and firearms, so does that mean anyone that shoots is awakened and that a rifle is just a spell?


Straw men aren't useful, dude. We're talking about unified Shadowrun supernature, unless you want to fully subscribe to the World of Darkness view in that even science is just another form of magic.

I think we can easily stay out of that circle, since in Shadowrun magic and technology are blatantly and diametrically opposed.
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