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Ally Spirits, More and more questions....

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The Stainless St...

Nov 17 2005, 06:32 PM

Post #1

Moving Target

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QUOTE (WireKnight @ Apr 9 2004, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE (Apathy @ Apr 9 2004, 06:56 PM)

All spirits have all attributes based on force at initial creation, but what about after they pop into existance? Is there a specific mention somewhere about what happens to the attributes of free spirits when they get enough karma to level up? If they do, then what happens to ally spirits once they go free? Do they suddenly get all those missing attribute points?

All spirits have attributes expressed in terms of F+M, where M is some integer value, positive, negative, or zero. As their Force changes, higher or lower, so changes all their attributes. This is universal, except... when we deal with a special case, like allies.

Ally spirits have only physical attributes expressed in terms of F+M. Their mental attributes are static(those of the summoner when they were created). We could create another thread to discuss it, but I'm under the impression the value of M can be changed by the summoner, rather than the attribute directly, during Ritual of Change uses to increase an Ally Spirit's physical attributes(i.e. a Force 3 Ally Spirit, whose Body has been increased to 5, would have a Body of 6 if its Force were increased to 4).

If this is true, though, it makes buying attribute points en masse at lower Force a good idea.

If it's not true, because Force doesn't increase their physical attributes, it either makes Force much less useful to an ally(and makes them unable to advance in all but Force, at all, if they become Free Spirits, since there's no other listed way to improve their attributes). An example of this would be the aforementioned Ally having Body 5, Quickness 3, and Strength 3, even at Force 4.

If it's not true, because Force doesn't consider modifications to attributes, it makes Ritual of Change(Increase Physical Attribute) less useful, as changes made in this way would be eroded as Force increased. An example of this would be the aforementioned Ally having Body 5, Quickness 4, and Strength 4, at Force 4(thus eroding 1 point of that improved Body the caster paid good dishonestly earned karma for).

I found this old topic and wanted to revisit it for a minute, as it seemed no one directly responded in the old thread.

1) If I have an Ally with Force 3, STR 5, and I increase the Force to 4, does the STR stay at 5 or increase to 6? I would lean toward increase to 6 because all other spirit types have their attributes listed as a function of force. This opens the door to munchies creating a F1 spirit, paying for huge bonuses to Phys attributes, then increasing the Force and pushing the Attributes through the roof. A simple fix to this would be to put a cap on the Physical attributes in relation to the Force. (F * 1.5? F * 2? What do you think?)

2) MITS pg 110 : The Ally's Mental Attributes are equal to the caster's at the time the spirit was created, and can never be changed.

I couldn't find anywhere where it specifically mentioned whether or not this was base attribute only. Will mental 'ware in the Summoner affect the Spirit? What about Sustained/Quickened Spells?

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Nov 17 2005, 07:15 PM Post #2
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	1> As written, the spirit's Strength stays 5. In fact, it'll stay 5 even if you eventually raise its force to 6(!) Ally Spirits' ritual of change is designed to screw you every way it can, meaning that once a spirit's base form is chosen a smart player rarely modifies it later (except occassionally to add new spells or skills). 2> Mental Ware generally does not affect magical tasks, so your Tailored Pheromones and such would not carry over to the spirit. Health Spell Increases, however, do count. So yes, the spirit can end up with some crazy high mental stats (which are now its base stats, so you can layer health spells on top of that for more hillarity). Hopefully the 4th edition version in Street Magic will be less messed up, but considering that the ally rules have been like that for 3 editions, I wouldn't hold my breath. -Frank

tisoz

Nov 17 2005, 09:20 PM

Post #3

Free Spirit

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

2> Mental Ware generally does not affect magical tasks, so your Tailored Pheromones and such would not carry over to the spirit. Health Spell Increases, however, do count. So yes, the spirit can end up with some crazy high mental stats (which are now its base stats, so you can layer health spells on top of that for more hillarity).

I agree with the Tailored Pheramone call, as its description says it has no effect on magic. However, I allow Cerebral Booster since it does apply to magical ability and bioware is considered natural.

I disagree on the attribute spell increases - can you cite anything that would support this position? IMO it would be like increasing an attribute when learning a new linked skill to benefit by a lower karma cost. The spell increase is not permanent, and is not subject to limits of a normal attribute.

nick012000 View Member Profile	Nov 18 2005, 09:11 AM Post #4
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	Won't they take a +2 to the TNs of summoning the spirit if the summoner's sustaining spells?

The Stainless St... The Stainless Steel Rat View Member Profile	Nov 18 2005, 02:52 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414	Yes, but there are easy ways around that. Sustaining Focus, Elemental Service, Quickening, have a buddy cast and sustain these spells for you, focused concentration, etc...

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