 Death in ShadowRun, and coming back from it... |
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 Nov 17 2005, 09:22 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 17-November 05 Member No.: 7,977  |
One thing the sourcebooks never touched on is exactly WHERE characters souls go when they die. One of the most admirable traits of the game was the permanent lethality. There is no cleric to come sashaying up the road and ressurect some dead PC.
But where does the character go when they die? Some astral plane? If such is the case, what is the potential that one could come back from the dead? I ask this because me and my group are going to attempt to resurrect our dead friends via: a free spirit with astral gateway, a ley line nexus, and (potentially) an exploding pheonix. |
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Nov 17 2005, 09:40 PM
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#2
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Any good GM will let you succeed in your tampering with such affairs, but it will later become apparent your good friends have all been absorbed by Master Shedim, and they will butcher the remaining living like lambs.
But then again, I have only one really hard rule in (most) games: try to tamper with affairs that big, and the big creatures will take notice. |
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Nov 17 2005, 10:13 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924 |
Was bringing people back from the dead possible in Earthdawn? If so, then you could sorta use that as a basis for a campaign. Rumours about someone (perhaps an archeologist?) finding ancient texts/scrolls/tablets/whatever about a possible method of bringing back the souls of the deceased, of course the Big Boys would be interested in such a thing for themselves, or to prevent anyone from using it, etc.
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Nov 17 2005, 10:26 PM
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#4
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
This has been done very, very intentionally. I can't recollect if the voodoun can talk with the dead (I suspect not). But barring that, I would tend to assume that dead = dead. After all, if you can throw away your character and say 'that's okay, he's in a better place' and mean it, you're blinding yourself to the dark world of Shadowrun. If I were the GM, unless the character was exceptionally spiritual or exceptionally lucky, I'd have an imposter spirit come through, play the part, win your trust, then kill you all in your sleep and steal your bodies. ("I'm taking this corpse to Mexico!") |
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Nov 17 2005, 10:35 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Chained ghosts are sort of parts of the dead people, but that might also be illusional in that it might be only ripples (or sometimes white cap rollers) of magic kicked up the dead person's past emotions. [EDIT: Think Background count only organized somewhat instead of chaotic to our senses.]
But say you do manage to track a spirit down in the metaplanes that appears to be your dead teammate? What you going to do? Leave them in spirit form, or try some angle to get them into the flesh? At this point in the discussion somewhere an entire line-dance column of angels are prancing upon a pin head.....and as Adarael points out a player should be leary to join in that dance. :) |
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Nov 17 2005, 10:55 PM
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#6
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Also, something to bear in mind.
Under no circumstances (successful or not, Master Shedim or not) can such a process be cheap, easy, or even predictable. If it can be quantified, a megacorp can mechanize, automate, or commodify it. Even if it IS possible, my tongue in cheek commentary about killing all of your PCs horribly aside, it can never, ever be counted on. Because if it can... All those hits you've pulled? Now worthless, cuz the targets are moving again. All those Delta clinic guards you've killed? Testifying against you. All those enemies you've whacked? Out for revenge. I've seen two people come back from the dead... or 1.5, depending. Ibn Eisa came back, supposedly, and he sure has the earmarks of Shedim all over him. Also, an NPC that had about 45 extra exposive rounds emptied into his skull and spine from point blank range came back. He brokered a deal with a Horror, or a Shedim, or something, cuz he was NOT right in the dome. That's the kind of stuff that brings you back, IMO. HORRIBLE, UNSPEAKABLE things. |
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Nov 17 2005, 11:06 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The methods used for resurrection in Earthdawn required certain special circumstances which no longer exist.
Where a person's soul (or spirit, ka, gros bon ange, etc.) goes when they die remains a mystery. Many would debate the very existence of souls and the afterlife. Ghosts, supposedly reincarnate individuals, and astral projections would lend credence to the existence of the soul, but aren't definitive proof. The only form of "resurrection" available in Shadowrun is cybermancy, which is the only known magic capable of affecting the metahuman spirit (not just their aura or astral self). |
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Nov 17 2005, 11:34 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924 |
I knew I should've remembered to turn on the AH signal to get you here.
Imagine the look on the players faces though after they go through all that trouble, only to find out it doesn't work. :D |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:01 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Tri-Cities, WA - USA Member No.: 7,947 |
In Earthdawn, Nethermancers could keep the ghosts of players (kinda a house rule involving one've their spells, tho, NOT CANON). They could also create people. But even the Questors of Light or whoever they were that could restore limbs and stuff couldn't bring people back from the dead, afaik. The closest you ever got in that game was cheating death with blood charms and nethermancers.
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Nov 18 2005, 12:06 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Odd, no mention of ancestor spirits yet.
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Nov 18 2005, 12:20 AM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In Earthdawn, a 10th circle ritual could raise the dead. Or it could turn the sun on and off.
Noone has any tenth circle anything in Shadowrun. The crazy biggest magic ever used since the awakening isn't 10th circle magic. So is it possible? Sure. But it isn't going to happen. There isn't enough threading that can be done that will get you to the tenth circle. -Frank |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:31 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 17-November 05 Member No.: 7,977 |
Well, assuming the Gm allows it, what are sound theories to make it possible from a roleplaying viewpoint? A mix of magic and technology?
Perhaps a clone from their deceased DNA and then conjuring adepts who have spent time studying their very souls? Whether it works or not, I wont know unless I try. And I need ideas to try. |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:39 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 29-May 05 Member No.: 7,419 |
Sigh. Now I have to dig out all my old ED books.
1) There are a couple of ways to raise the dead in Earthdawn. The one that was mentioned previously is actually a 10th Circle Wizard spell called Jouney to Life. Essentially, you cast the spell, and it takes as many days as the person was dead for their spirit to find its way back. Must be cast in Safe areas (SR: no background count), otherwise very bad things happen. 2) Among other ways of resurrection is the Last Chance Salve. Must be applied to a body dead an hour or less, and allows the character to roll all their remaining Recovery Tests (adept Fast Healing on steroids). If the Tests cure enough damage to bring their hit points (remember, this is ED, not SR) above 0, the character lives. 3) All of this is contingent upon the belief that the Passions imprisoned Death below Death's Sea (modern: the Caspian, I think, I don't have a map with me), which turned it into a sea of lava. With Death imprisoned, all of these resurrection magics work. Whether this is *actually* true was never revealed, nor whether there was a different reason the Caspian went from water to lava and back to water. Sure would be interesting if it was linked to mana level instead and suddenly one day trasnmuted itself, wouldn't it? |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:51 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Tri-Cities, WA - USA Member No.: 7,947 |
After reading through the blood magic book (what earthdawn magic is basically based off of) and conjecture from various other books (ala Harlequinn's Back, etc), anything powerful enough to resurrect someone would probably be along the lines of a ghost dance and probably tear big old cheese holes in astral space.
[edit] BTW, i wasn't meaning to imply ED magic is based off the blood magic SB for shadowrun, just that most of the powerful ED magic involves taking damage to perform various feats/skills/spells/powers/what-have-you[/edit] |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:54 AM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So you want to raise the dead, and you know it's a bad idea, and you're willing to try anyway? Sweet. Try this: When a human dies, they leave a stain on the astral plane, sometimes this resolves itself into a ghost, sometimes it resolves itself into a background count. Sometimes both. You're going to need to go there. With a clonal body of the deceased (with enough paid to Docwagon, you may already have one). Now, you're going to need to summon your friend's ghost. Your friend probably hasn't made a ghost, but you're going to have to conjure it anyway. That means that you'll have to go on an Astral Quest, and the metaplane you're going to need to get to isn't on your standard list, which means that you're going to have to aura-attune yourself to the appropriate metaplane like that astral stain was a ward you were trying to fit through - a stupidly titanic ward that you were passing through. And then... it's astral quest time. The rating would be something... big. Then once you've completed teh quest, you're still not done. Now you have to actually summon the spirit, which is itself a "spontaneous spirit" which means that all of your target numbers are doubled. Feeling the burn yet? You should, because now that you've summoned it, you need to bind the spirit to the body as a loa to a host - and that means enchanting. Enchanting can't work on living creatures, and ultimately the host needs to be alive. What for it but CPR! The human body can be "dead" for 4 solid minutes and still be resuccitated. That clonal body you have in storage, you're going to have to "kill it" for short periods of time over and over again. Every "death" of the body buys you 4 minutes of hard labor. The base time is probably about 48 hours of solid work, so make sure you roll real high on that enchanting test! Finally, you have a spirit that thinks that it is your friend, and a body which is genetically identical to your friend, joined together as a cyberzombie. Which is in many ways very similar to having raised the dead. In fact, depending upon how you think of identity, that might actually be your friend. -Frank |
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Nov 18 2005, 12:58 AM
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#16
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
This is from many years ago, but didn't one of the ED books mention something about magic masks and going into Death's domain, involving a masked ball or something, being able to get people back as well?
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Nov 18 2005, 02:08 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 29-May 05 Member No.: 7,419 |
I think that was a legend, where a Thief goes into Death's Domain to steal the soul of her lover back after he was killed.
Though it was suggested in one of the sourcebooks that players could do something similar, and pretty much gave the DM carte blanche to go wild. |
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Nov 18 2005, 02:28 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 57 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,767 |
I'll bite. Ancestor Spirits are Spirits of Man that, more likely than not, have been 'colored' by the beliefs of those who summon them in the same way that a City Spirit might be 'colored' by the style and attitude of the local gangers that prowl its turf. They are not actually (un)dead and were never actually alive, they're just the summoner's memories and feelings superimposed onto the spirit's blank slate. And even if you do go with the position that Ancestor Spirits are "real" they aren't restless spirits waiting for a body. They are happily deceased and moved on to their final rest, and have no intention of (physically) returning. They advise their ancestors because they're cool like that, not in hopes of being brought back to life. The disquieted spirits in Japanese mythology arise from the 'lower' soul (the baser, animalistic spirit) that becomes disconnected from the 'higher' soul once it becomes untethered to its mortal concerns. The result is po (hungry ghosts, hollow ghosts, whatever you want to call them) that are nothing but mindless, soul-devouring, human-tormenting monsters that couldn't be brought back to life. So, ancestor worship as presented in Shinto definitely can't be used as supporting evidence for raising the dead, no matter how you want to cut it. And that brings us to the real problem with this: even if the 'soul' exists after death, and even if you can find it, so what? At best you can get it to possess a body, and I sincerely hope your GM isn't going to let the player become a free spirit possessing a metahuman body. Your best case scenario is that you bring him back to life - sort of, almost, kind of, but not really - as an NPC and get to enjoy hanging out with him for a week before every major magical player has their way with every hole God drilled into your slender frame (and/or astral self) to find out how you did it, why you did it, and who the fuck you think you are to even try it. But hey, if you're going to kill yourself calling down the wrath of all the biggest magical Threats in the game on your head is a pretty spectacular way to go. More power to you. |
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Nov 18 2005, 04:08 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
What if?
After months searching you find the spell the spell to reattach your dead friends soul to her body. After a exhausting Astral quest you find your dead friends spirit and learn how to summon it. Your friend is happy where she is and does not wish to return. Something else does wish to live again. After the spell nearly kills you, you find out that you now have to go out and stop the evil thing that is now running around in your old friends body. |
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Nov 18 2005, 04:26 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Y'know, I very specifically mentioned that the conditions that allowed resurrection in Earthdawn are no longer true in Shadowrun. It's not just the high mana level - Death is no longer imprisoned.
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Nov 18 2005, 05:30 AM
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#21
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is a solution for that. The PCs just have to track down the Vampire Killer whip and wait around Wallachia untill a giant castle magically appear.
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Nov 18 2005, 05:43 AM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
While Death isn't imprisoned, there also isn't any evidence that Death exists at the current level of the mana cycle. It's entirely possible that there is a window of time when resurrection is possible.
-Frank |
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Nov 18 2005, 06:21 AM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,950 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Simple enough. To the city morgue, then the incinerator. ~J |
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Nov 18 2005, 06:31 AM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Or a ghoul's belly, or a tanamous workshop, depending upon what country you are in. -Frank |
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Nov 18 2005, 07:13 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
Is there any reference to him being freed in canon? If so, where? I know, no Death Sea around lately, but anything else? In the Earthdawn campaign I ran through the last years, one of the final adventures gave the group the decision to free death or to keep him imprisoned. The players had the key to his prison. In the end the players decided that death is a part of life's normal cycle and that the passions had no right to interfere with it. |
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