 Casting Blindfolded |
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 Nov 19 2005, 08:53 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684  |
Do even blindfolds not stop mage LOS?
I was contemplating the classic archtype, the blind swordsman. If you are making an adept of this type, there are two ways to go in older editions: Blindfighting power, or Astral Perception. Since blindfighting isn't (yet) in SR4, and I was always keen on the "blind man sees into your soul" aspect, I was considering Astral Perception. A bit later, and I was considering "style." Specifically, I was thinking of the blind swordsman wearing a blindfold, a la Tassedar -- the blind demon hunter from warcraft 3. Obviously, I think, a blindfold won't affect a blind person. Nor his astral sight, which isn't tied to his eyes anyway. And then it hits me. If that's the case, then a blindfold won't stop a full magician, nor even slow him down. There are no penalties for spellcasting while astrally perceiving. Even the old-edition "mage mask" would just apply penalties. Was this always the case? I admit to not taking many mages alive... What do I need to stop a mage's LOS, a giant lead bucket? (or perhaps just smaller, but much faster, bits of lead... that's a bit more permanent than I'd like to get. How do insane mages stand trial?) |
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Nov 19 2005, 09:09 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Tri-Cities, WA - USA Member No.: 7,947 |
IIRC, you can't cast a spell while astrally percieving/projecting.
Anything else I add to this would be in the vein of, "Well, in 3rd Edition..." |
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Nov 19 2005, 09:15 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 21-October 05 From: In a Starbucks™ café near you Member No.: 7,870 |
You don't recall correctly.
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Nov 19 2005, 09:20 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
IIRC the mage mask was a full hood, and your astral perception is based on/around your eyes. There's the central third eye concept too that I suppose some characters might want to go with.
In-general I'd say that astral perception would be centered on your eyes, although I'd allow them to vary it on a case by case basis but once a character has made their choice it cannot be changed. This might make for some quite interesting concepts too, as the rabbit shaman has its two astral eyes on the side of its head for better all-round vision but worse depth perception (+1/-1 on certain perception tests). What I wouldn't allow woudl be for someone to shift their astral perception to their foot if someone puts a hood on you, and if you have your perception in your foot naturally then you're blind if you're wearing socks/shoes. |
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Nov 19 2005, 09:30 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Oh yes, and I suspect larger penalties would apply to doing *anything* normally whilst astrally percieving if your astral sight is from a significantly different POV than your normal vision. Granted, a blind man has no normal PoV, but you get the idea.
Although there is nothing to say that your astral perception must be fixed to your eyes, that's no ground on which to assume it can be anywhere on your body either. You may as well assume you can percieve from the other side of a wall or from a point around the corner as IIRC there's nothing to say it must be fixed to your body. |
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Nov 19 2005, 11:43 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
You can cast spells while astrally projecting/perceiving, but you still have to be able to target someone. Anyone who is not astrally active cannot be targeted on the astral plane, so while your blind mage can see people, he can't cast spells at them until they become astrally active.
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Nov 20 2005, 12:17 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
nope, you can cast spells on perfectly normal people using astral precption, as long as they are 'on the same plane' as you.
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Nov 20 2005, 12:17 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
You (Edit: Hasaku, that is) are incorrect.
And, there are some differences in this edition regarding projecting magicians -- specifically, "manifesting" magicians, who are projecting in astral space and making their presence known on the physical, are now vulnerable to mana spells cast by magicians who are only on the physical plane. As far as I know, this is different than past editions. This seems to violate the rule as stated above, but, well, there it is. Thankfully, it's a one-way affect... the targeted manifesting magician can't fire back with mana spells. I hope. :/ Still, it's weird. |
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Nov 20 2005, 01:26 AM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
err, wtf is that about? i want a text quote please :P |
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Nov 20 2005, 01:32 AM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well it is an interesting question, what is the point of reception for astral sight. Because a strip of cloth WILL block Astral Preception LOS if it is in the way, whether you are blind physically or not, as it physical plane barriers block astral vision. So if your physical eyes are the point of reception, or on the the line to the point of reception, a blindfold will block the Astral Perception.
I'm trying to remember where there was some mention of a "3rd eye" in past canon. That is usually in RL occult thought of being in the middle of your forehead, though it varies somewhat. |
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Nov 20 2005, 01:40 AM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
The quote you're looking for is oddly enough, located under the subheading "Manafesting" that's on p.184. It goes into all the details.
And personally, I don't think it should be one way. If a manifested mage has enough presence on the physical plane to be a valid target for a spell cast from the physical plane, they should also have enough presence to be able to manipulate the mana on the physical plane into spells of their own. The book stipulates that a manifested character can not physically interact with anything, but I don't think spellcasting counts as physically interacting. |
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Nov 20 2005, 02:13 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Can you still cast any spell as a touch or are those limited now.
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Nov 20 2005, 02:16 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
Yea, the one way thing makes no sense... but... think... do you REALLY want mages to be able to pop out of astral space (at 3 passes a turn) as a surprise ambush, lay down some mana balls, and escape back into the ether before a retaliation can be mounted? Yikes! Then again... astral mages can summon spirits, which can then materialize. But at least you can fight a materialized spirit. A non-mage character has ZERO chance of harming a manifest mage (as per the text, the manifesting mage is immune to damage from physical sources). Really, I was quite surprised to see this text in there. This is new to Shadowrun, and would seem to have some pretty big possibilities. |
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Nov 20 2005, 02:23 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
The specific quote for that is this:
Gramatically, "these targets" would refer to "targets that the caster touches" -- which would mean any target that the mage touches is valid for any spell. Though, there is enough ambiguity to say that "these targets" refers to "targets of spells that can only be cast on targets the caster touches." This is less gramatically sound, in my opinion, but not outside the realm of possibility. So... ask your GM. But really, this isn't the constitution or anything, and I hate having to analyze the "original author's intent" to such a detail. I wish that a good number of places in this book where more explicit. |
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Nov 20 2005, 02:46 AM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Welcome to the Sixth World, Chummer. Magic is power. :evil:
Or they can manifest instead. The book says that many spirits prefer manifesting instead of materializing "if they need to interact with a physical person". However, the very next sentence says that they must materialize to use a power on a target that's solely on the physical plane, so it's not entirely clear what "interactions" they would simply manifest for. Note that this limit on how a spirit can use its powers strongly supports the "one-way" view of manifesting.
I don't know about you, but I would have been entirely happy if it had simply been "any character not on the astral plane has zero chance of harming a manifest mage." Making them vulnerable to mana based effects cast from the physical plane raises too many ugly questions.
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Nov 20 2005, 02:53 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kill Em All Member No.: 2,018 |
Talk Threaten Intimidate Point the Way |
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Nov 20 2005, 03:00 AM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Those would be the obvious choices, yes. |
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Nov 20 2005, 03:01 AM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Get a closer look (avoid astral->physical perception penalties, can see detail). |
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Nov 20 2005, 03:14 AM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
I guess the question is, would those "interactions" be worth it to the spirit to risk being targeted by a spellcaster on the physical plane, a spellcaster that the spirit would be unable to reciprocate against without switching from manifesting to materializing?
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Nov 20 2005, 03:19 AM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Vs. a mage tossing Mana spells? Can't see it. It's more protection vs. Adepts that are unable to go dual, mundanes with big freakin' weapons, mages that don't Banish and only have attack spells that are Physical, and from physical environments that are "unhealthy" for the spirit such as on the docks for a fire element. |
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Nov 21 2005, 10:51 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
He can cast spells on targets in any plane because he can see targets in any plane. The rules assume all characters are sighted, and that paragraph was obviously not written with blind people in mind. It's a general case, blind mages being an exception. |
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Nov 21 2005, 11:24 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I disagree. He can cast at targets on either plane because, while astrally perceiving he's dual natured, and therefore exists on both planes. If astrally projecting mage manifests, he is visible on the physical plane, but still only 'exists' on the astral plane. He can't target physical-only stuff (mundanes, street sams, drones,...), and mages that are not astrally percieving can't target him. As soon as the physical mage starts astrally percieving, he exists on the astral, as well as physical planes, and both mages can target one another. Just my opinion, but interested in hearing arguments against. |
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Nov 21 2005, 11:27 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
Here's one off the top of my head. Would you allow a blind mage, not astrally perceiving, to cast Manabolt at a mundane whose presence he is aware of through hearing?
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Nov 21 2005, 11:29 PM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Then how do you explain "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane." (p.184, SR4) The "on the physical plane" says to me that if you're on the phyiscal plane and want to cast a mana spell at a manafested being, you don't have to do anything extra special like turning on astral perception. |
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Nov 21 2005, 11:34 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Not sure if you were asking me, or someone else. I would not allow a blind(or blind-folded, or eyes-closed, or in absolute darkness without vision enhancements, etc.) mage to cast a LOS spell of any type, unless he was astrally percieving. So if you're a blind mystic adept who didn't buy astral perception, you're restricted to touch-range spells. [Edit] Just had an interesting thought... I guess the only way the guy above could effect people he couldn't see, and wasn't touching, would be to have an elemental area-effect touch-range spell. So I touch the ground and cast Toxic Wave, flooding a [magic rating] radius area with Acid, which would then damage me at the same time as everyone else in range. Boy, that's sucky... |
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