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Hasaku

Nov 21 2005, 11:36 PM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)

QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 21 2005, 06:24 PM)

If astrally projecting mage manifests, he is visible on the physical plane, but still only 'exists' on the astral plane. He can't target physical-only stuff (mundanes, street sams, drones,...), and mages that are not astrally percieving can't target him.

Then how do you explain "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane." (p.184, SR4)

The "on the physical plane" says to me that if you're on the phyiscal plane and want to cast a mana spell at a manafested being, you don't have to do anything extra special like turning on astral perception.

That was my understanding. You have to use a mana spell because he has no physical form, but you can see him visually (physically) and target him accordingly. His manifested form is a valid target for spells on the physical plane. My argument is basically predicated on my belief that the aura of a mundane, viewed on the astral plane, is not a valid target for spells on astral plane, which is the blind magician's only method of targetting.

blakkie

Nov 22 2005, 12:11 AM

Post #27

Dragon

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QUOTE (Hasaku @ Nov 21 2005, 05:36 PM)

QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Nov 21 2005, 04:29 PM)

QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 21 2005, 06:24 PM)

If astrally projecting mage manifests, he is visible on the physical plane, but still only 'exists' on the astral plane. He can't target physical-only stuff (mundanes, street sams, drones,...), and mages that are not astrally percieving can't target him.

Then how do you explain "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane." (p.184, SR4)

The "on the physical plane" says to me that if you're on the phyiscal plane and want to cast a mana spell at a manafested being, you don't have to do anything extra special like turning on astral perception.

That was my understanding. You have to use a mana spell because he has no physical form, but you can see him visually (physically) and target him accordingly. His manifested form is a valid target for spells on the physical plane. My argument is basically predicated on my belief that the aura of a mundane, viewed on the astral plane, is not a valid target for spells on astral plane, which is the blind magician's only method of targetting.

I see where you are going with this, however when your are Astrally Preceiving you don't actually see with your physical plane sight and visa versa. It isn't overlayed.

QUOTE (page 182)

A character using astral perception
is considered dual natured, active on
both the physical and astral planes simultaneously.

So you indeed "see" physical plane things from the astral (read the sidebars 166, 167) and simply need your meat body touching the mana stream on that side to get the spell to the physical plane target.

As for whether the aura can be considered "seeing", first it satisfies the natural vision requirement for LOS (hearing physical nor astral does not). Second check out Ritual Spellcasting. Yes it is a different (but related) skill, but it is clear there that LOS from astral to physical works.

P.S. At this point some cheezy argument could be made for a Astral Projecting mage to use their limp body to hit physical targets, but i wouldn't buy that since they have no control over their physical body and therefore cannot use it as their body for or casting/summoning. While they are out the meat isn't them. It only works for Ritual Spellcasting because of the group (the spotter doesn't get to contribute dice).

Hasaku

Nov 22 2005, 12:42 AM

Post #28

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Apathy @ Nov 21 2005, 04:34 PM)

[Edit] Just had an interesting thought... I guess the only way the guy above could effect people he couldn't see, and wasn't touching, would be to have an elemental area-effect touch-range spell. So I touch the ground and cast Toxic Wave, flooding a [magic rating] radius area with Acid, which would then damage me at the same time as everyone else in range.

Boy, that's sucky...

I'd probably allow him to target points in space for elemental AoE spells, as well as using touch range spells normally.

QUOTE (blakkie)

QUOTE ((p. 182))

A character using astral perception
is considered dual natured, active on
both the physical and astral planes simultaneously.

So you indeed "see" physical plane things from the astral (read the sidebars 166, 167) and simply need your meat body touching the mana stream on that side to get the spell to the physical plane target.

Here are some quotes to back up the argument to follow:

QUOTE (Sidebar @ p. 166)

Auras are intangible on the astral plane-astral entities pass right through them...

QUOTE (Sidebar @ p. 167)

Things that exist on the physical can be seen and heard from the astral, though any non-living objects appear as gray, faded semblances of their physical appearance. The auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.
Anything that exists on the astral plane has an astral form-projecting full magicians, spirits, dual beings, and so on. Astral forms are solid and substantial on the astral plane and are more colorful and brighter than auras.

QUOTE (Step 3: Choose the Target(s) @ p. 173)

A magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form.

I don't deny that you can "see" things on the physical plane with your astral sense. I'm merely asserting that they are not valid targets for spells cast on the astral plane unless they have an astral form, which is different from a person's aura. I further assert that since a blind magician can only "see" targets with astral perception, he must be considered to occupy only the astral plane for the purposes of targetting spells. As an astral caster, he can only target astral forms. Neither Joe Mundane's aura nor Joe Mundane himself is an astral form; thus, he cannot be targetted. If you allow an astrally perceiving mage to use astral perception alone to target J.M., you must allow a projecting mage to do the same.

edited for clarification

Darkness

Nov 22 2005, 01:28 AM

Post #29

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I'm just throwing this into the fray:

QUOTE ("SR4 @ p.173, Spellcasting->Step 4: Make Spellcasting Test")

Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. The Spellcaster rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifiers.

Emphasis mine.

If spellcasting wouldn't be visually based, these modifiers would be senseless.

Hasaku

Nov 22 2005, 02:03 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (Darkness)

I'm just throwing this into the fray:

QUOTE ("SR4 @ p.173, Spellcasting->Step 4: Make Spellcasting Test")

Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. The Spellcaster rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifiers.

Emphasis mine.

If spellcasting wouldn't be visually based, these modifiers would be senseless.

Spellcasting is visual, but astral perception is interpreted by the brain as a visual sense. Astrally perceiving magicians can use it to "see" and target astral forms. This doesn't affect my argument against blind, perceiving magicians casting direct LOS spells at mundane targets.

blakkie

Nov 22 2005, 04:29 AM

Post #31

Dragon

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QUOTE (Hasaku @ Nov 21 2005, 06:42 PM)

Here are some quotes to back up the argument to follow:

QUOTE (Sidebar @ p. 166)

Auras are intangible on the astral plane-astral entities pass right through them...

QUOTE (Sidebar @ p. 167)

Things that exist on the physical can be seen and heard from the astral, though any non-living objects appear as gray, faded semblances of their physical appearance. The auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.
Anything that exists on the astral plane has an astral form-projecting full magicians, spirits, dual beings, and so on. Astral forms are solid and substantial on the astral plane and are more colorful and brighter than auras.

QUOTE (Step 3: Choose the Target(s) @ p. 173)

A magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form.

I don't deny that you can "see" things on the physical plane with your astral sense. I'm merely asserting that they are not valid targets for spells cast on the astral plane unless they have an astral form, which is different from a person's aura. I further assert that since a blind magician can only "see" targets with astral perception, he must be considered to occupy only the astral plane for the purposes of targetting spells. As an astral caster, he can only target astral forms. Neither Joe Mundane's aura nor Joe Mundane himself is an astral form; thus, he cannot be targetted. If you allow an astrally perceiving mage to use astral perception alone to target J.M., you must allow a projecting mage to do the same.

Unfortunately none of those actually address the situation of a dual natured caster.

First LOS: If you see the target with your own sight you have LOS ("If the caster can see the target, regardless of distance, it can be aff ected.", page 195). The dual natured creature looking through astral can see the physical target via astral ("Things that exist on the physical can be seen and heard from the astral, though any non-living objects appear as gray, faded semblances of their physical appearance.", page 167), so there is LOS.

Now onto transmission:

QUOTE

Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana
fi eld by a magician, who shapes it in certain ways for certain
effects. A good metaphor for this is to equate the mana fi eld
with the airwaves, making the use of Sorcery the transmission
of certain radio signals that create different effects. To
cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and
transmits it on a specifi c frequency. The act of channeling
is fatiguing to a magician, and causes drain. The signal that
the magician creates is based on a spell formula that the
magician has learned, determining its form and effect. The
target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is
sent on the target’s frequency. When the signal is received, it
channels mana through the target to create a specifi ed effect
(thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they
affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same
plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.

Now is the dual natured caster on the physical plane while viewing through the astral?

QUOTE (167)

Dual beings exist on both sides of the barrier
simultaneously, and their astral and physical forms are connected.
Awakened entities who astrally perceive are also striking
this chord of resonance and creating astral forms; they too
are dual beings. Spells are never dual-natured, because they
are created through mana, and mana permeates both planes.

So indeed they are on both at once, as one.

Now onto that quote you took from page 173. Your use of that quote is assuming an OR between being a astral entity and a physical entity. Why do i say that? Because if we read it as you do then a dual natured creature could cast NEITHER on physical nor astral because as we saw above they are both astral and physical at once (and there is a mirror statement above your quote physical can only cast on physical). Then immediately below it states that:

QUOTE

An astrally perceiving
(or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a
target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral
target can only be aff ected by mana spells—even if the magician
is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.

Note that it does NOT state that astrally preceiving cannot cast physical spells on the physical. In fact the first sentence can be read to say you can do it! The target, selection method left open, can be hit on by a spell either on the physical or astral, physical or astral viewing mode of the caster left open. A lack of physical presense is what causes the only type of specified invalid target to be an invalid target.

The only possible argument i see is that viewing of the target is part of the spell instead of just part of the process. However while the targeting is part of the grimore description, and certainly part of the overall process, there isn't much in the way of textual support that target selection is actually part of the spell itself (the transmission, as described bottom left page 167).

Does it leave some wiggle room? A little bit i guess. *shrug* But not much. Well we have seen wording flat out not match intended rules (firearms recoil anyone?), so it could. Doing so would involve reversal of the explicit allowance in SR3 of astral precieving casters targeting on the physical plane via astral perception. Sure there are a few other sutble changes from SR3 (ditching Exclusive actions for example). All possible? *shrug* But barring explicit Fanpro statement otherwise it is a real long stretch.

Hasaku

Nov 23 2005, 01:22 AM

Post #32

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QUOTE

Unfortunately none of those actually address the situation of a dual natured caster.

Just establishing the concept of astral forms as distinct from auras.

QUOTE

First LOS: If you see the target with your own sight you have LOS ("If the caster can see the target, regardless of distance, it can be aff ected.", page 195). The dual natured creature looking through astral can see the physical target via astral ("Things that exist on the physical can be seen and heard from the astral, though any non-living objects appear as gray, faded semblances of their physical appearance.", page 167), so there is LOS.

He can see the target but not, in my opinion, in a manner that allows him to cast spells at it. Remember, all the spellcasting rules are written with a fully-sighted character in mind.

QUOTE

Now onto transmission:

QUOTE

Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana
fi eld by a magician, who shapes it in certain ways for certain
effects. A good metaphor for this is to equate the mana fi eld
with the airwaves, making the use of Sorcery the transmission
of certain radio signals that create different effects. To
cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and
transmits it on a specifi c frequency. The act of channeling
is fatiguing to a magician, and causes drain. The signal that
the magician creates is based on a spell formula that the
magician has learned, determining its form and effect. The
target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is
sent on the target’s frequency. When the signal is received, it
channels mana through the target to create a specifi ed effect
(thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they
affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same
plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.

Now is the dual natured caster on the physical plane while viewing through the astral?

QUOTE (167)

Dual beings exist on both sides of the barrier
simultaneously, and their astral and physical forms are connected.
Awakened entities who astrally perceive are also striking
this chord of resonance and creating astral forms; they too
are dual beings. Spells are never dual-natured, because they
are created through mana, and mana permeates both planes.

So indeed they are on both at once, as one.

Of course he's still on the physical plane, and of course he can still channel mana on that plane. I'm just asserting that before he can do so, he must have LOS to the target on that plane.

QUOTE

Now onto that quote you took from page 173. Your use of that quote is assuming an OR between being a astral entity and a physical entity.

The quote is relevant because I stated that the blind magician can only target through the astral plane, so he should use the targeting rules for astral beings, at least for direct spells. Here's the exact quote, in fact:

QUOTE (Hasaku)

I further assert that since a blind magician can only "see" targets with astral perception, he must be considered to occupy only the astral plane for the purposes of targetting spells. As an astral caster, he can only target astral forms.

My argument hinges on how he targets his spells and whether this precludes him from casting at physical targets, not whether he can channel mana on the physical plane.

QUOTE

Why do i say that? Because if we read it as you do then a dual natured creature could cast NEITHER on physical nor astral because as we saw above they are both astral and physical at once (and there is a mirror statement above your quote physical can only cast on physical). Then immediately below it states that:

QUOTE

An astrally perceiving
(or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

Note that it does NOT state that astrally preceiving cannot cast physical spells on the physical. In fact the first sentence can be read to say you can do it!

I agree, an astrally perceiving mage can cast spells on the physical. However, he must have LOS to do so, and I'm arguing that LOS on the astral plane to a mundane aura does not count.

QUOTE

The target, selection method left open, can be hit on by a spell either on the physical or astral, physical or astral viewing mode of the caster left open. A lack of physical presense is what causes the only type of specified invalid target to be an invalid target.

I assume you're referring to p. 173, where it states "An astral target can only be affected by mana spells-even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving-as it has no physical presence." My argument against the blind magician targetting J.M. was never based on what plane he occupies. It was based solely on whether he can use astral LOS to target the spell in the first place.

QUOTE

The only possible argument i see is that viewing of the target is part of the spell instead of just part of the process. However while the targeting is part of the grimore description, and certainly part of the overall process, there isn't much in the way of textual support that target selection is actually part of the spell itself (the transmission, as described bottom left page 167).

I don't believe targetting is part of the transmission at all. I believe that before you can cast the spell, you have to target, and you can't do that in this specific situation.

QUOTE

Does it leave some wiggle room? A little bit i guess. *shrug* But not much. Well we have seen wording flat out not match intended rules (firearms recoil anyone?), so it could. Doing so would involve reversal of the explicit allowance in SR3 of astral precieving casters targeting on the physical plane via astral perception. Sure there are a few other sutble changes from SR3 (ditching Exclusive actions for example). All possible? *shrug* But barring explicit Fanpro statement otherwise it is a real long stretch.

If SR3 explicitly states that astral perception alone is enough to target mundanes, without any physical LOS, then I suppose I'd grandfather it into SR4 and allow it. From my reading of the SR4 text and my understanding of the spellcasting process, however, it shouldn't be. It's not even necessary from a game mechanics perspective. The blind mage has plenty of options without using direct combat spells on mundanes. As I said, I'd allow him to cast the indirect combat spells using astral targetting. That's not part of my argument; I'm just mentioning it in passing.

edit: I think we've pretty much exhausted the ability of the rules to support our interpretations. At this point it can only degenerate into "Yeah huh, nuh uh, yeah huh, nuh uh..." Agree to disagree?

Feshy

Nov 23 2005, 01:41 AM

Post #33

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QUOTE

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space.

I guess I just don't see how you are disagreeing with this single line. A blind astrally perceiving character (who can see exactly as well, or as poorly, as a fully sighted astrally perceiving character -- they see exactly the same thing when perceiving) can "cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."

That seems to pretty directly state that, well, an astrally perceiving character can cast spells on targets in the physical world.

Blind or whatever doesn't even need to come into the equation.

blakkie

Nov 23 2005, 03:06 AM

Post #34

Dragon

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QUOTE (Hasaku)

edit: I think we've pretty much exhausted the ability of the rules to support our interpretations. At this point it can only degenerate into "Yeah huh, nuh uh, yeah huh, nuh uh..." Agree to disagree?

The SR3 rule are fully explicit in it....ummm page 182, bottom right. But there really is no need to grandfather at all. What SR4 did was cut out a bunch of text, but didn't fill in all the exceptions to cover off people reading in stuff that isn't there....which is what you are doing. An excellent example is this part you mention about LOS:

QUOTE

He can see the target but not, in my opinion, in a manner that allows him to cast spells at it. Remember, all the spellcasting rules are written with a fully-sighted character in mind.

WTF??? Umm, i showed where astrally viewer actually sees things on the physical plane. It actually explains it literally as such, which is the requirement for LOS. Then you make up this opinion based on....sweet fuck all. There is no place that says you need LOS on the plane you are casting on, nowhere.

Oh, another example is:

QUOTE

The quote is relevant because I stated that the blind magician can only target through the astral plane, so he should use the targeting rules for astral beings, at least for direct spells. Here's the exact quote, in fact:

So now because the guy's eyes don't work, he no longer has dual status and is astral only? Eyes that neither him nor any other astral preceiving mage even use when viewing astral?

Don't get me wrong, that's only a sample of the illogic i see in your post. No real need to go on though, because yes indeed it would seem hopeless for us to come to agreement if you insist on such madness. :wobble:

Hasaku

Nov 23 2005, 04:27 AM

Post #35

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QUOTE

A blind astrally perceiving character (who can see exactly as well, or as poorly, as a fully sighted astrally perceiving character -- they see exactly the same thing when perceiving) can "cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."

That seems to pretty directly state that, well, an astrally perceiving character can cast spells on targets in the physical world.

They see as well as the fully sighted character on the astral plane. The fully sighted character can also see on the physical plane, which is what allows him to cast spells on targets in the physical world. He has "physical" LOS as well as "astral" LOS.

QUOTE

WTF??? Umm, i showed where astrally viewer actually sees things on the physical plane. It actually explains it literally as such, which is the requirement for LOS. Then you make up this opinion based on....sweet fuck all. There is no place that says you need LOS on the plane you are casting on, nowhere

One could argue that he sees the shadow of things on the physical plane. A normal astrally perceiving character sees the actual object and its astral shadow simultanously, which is what allows him to cast spells at targets on either plane. All the paragraphs, everything you could possibly quote about what astrally perceiving characters can and cannot do, are describing a fully sighted mage using astral perception. Blind mages are an exception.

Basically, I'm drawing a clear distinction between physical LOS and astral LOS. You are not. That's really at the heart of the matter.

QUOTE

So now because the guy's eyes don't work, he no longer has dual status and is astral only?

I'm not saying he lacks dual status; I'm saying all his targetting must be done astrally, so why not use the rules for purely astral targetting. Rules that would prohibit him from casting direct spells at mundanes. Seriously, are you deliberately misinterpreting just to score another point or do you honestly not understand my point of view?

QUOTE

Eyes that neither him nor any other astral preceiving mage even use when viewing astral?

Astrally perceiving mages see both planes, so they're certainly using their physical eyes. They see both planes, they occupy both planes, they target both planes. Except the blind ones. They only do that second one.

----------:eek:

I leave my post in for archival purposes :P. I just reread the description of astral perception, and it appears to be different from SR3. It does, in fact, completely replace your visual sense while in use. I was thinking of it as an overlay, like AR. Obviously, astrally perceiving mages who aren't blind can still cast spells at mundanes, so blind ones can as well. In other words, I was wrong. Ick, three words I hate to say. ;)

QUOTE

yes indeed it would seem hopeless for us to come to agreement if you insist on such madness.

Is that like space madness?

Feshy

Nov 23 2005, 05:02 AM

Post #36

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QUOTE

A normal astrally perceiving character sees the actual object and its astral shadow simultanously

QUOTE

Astrally perceiving mages see both planes, so they're certainly using their physical eyes

No.

P. 182

QUOTE

187). It takes a Simple Action to shift one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time

Edit -- Ah... you found it at the end of your post. Well, I'll leave this up then so people have the page reference.

Azralon

Nov 23 2005, 03:31 PM

Post #37

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QUOTE (Feshy)

A blind astrally perceiving character (who can see exactly as well, or as poorly, as a fully sighted astrally perceiving character -- they see exactly the same thing when perceiving) can "cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."

I didn't notice if this was mentioned already (because I usually read forums while astrally perceiving):

QUOTE (p182)

Whenever you have to perform a physical, non-magical task (shooting a gun, driving a car, and so forth) while astrally perceiving, you suffer a –2 dice pool penalty.

Has anyone seen mention of astral sight being unable to read text anymore? Can our projected ghosts read street signs and computer terminals in SR4, just at a -2 penalty?

Hasaku View Member Profile	Nov 23 2005, 04:29 PM Post #38
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197	Since you couldn't in SR3, I'd guess you still can't. It's just a simple action to switch back to normal sight if you need to read something.

Demon_Bob

Nov 23 2005, 04:31 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE (Azralon)

Has anyone seen mention of astral sight being unable to read text anymore? Can our projected ghosts read street signs and computer terminals in SR4, just at a -2 penalty?

Haven't seen anything in the rules about being able to read normal physical writings or not while astral percieving.
I would say that the ability to read in this manner would be dependant on the importance of the document or item in question. The more important the item the greater an astral impression that the users imprint upon it, and the easier it is to read.

blakkie

Nov 23 2005, 04:32 PM

Post #40

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QUOTE (Hasaku @ Nov 22 2005, 10:27 PM)

QUOTE

yes indeed it would seem hopeless for us to come to agreement if you insist on such madness.

Is that like space madness?

No, it's like Frank madness. :(
P.S.

QUOTE

Blind mages are an exception.

Only they are a fairly common exception. At least that's a what a ghoul told me.

Azralon View Member Profile	Nov 23 2005, 04:37 PM Post #41
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	SR3 legacy rules are dangerous things to remember, so I hesitate to follow them. Particularly since we have some first-time players in our current group who have only SR4 for reference ("What page does it say that on, Mr. GM? I can't find it."). The workaround of flipping back to normal sight to read won't apply when someone is projecting, so we can't fully skirt the issue. It was still tricky in previous editions. For instance, text printed on a flat page couldn't be read from the astral, but what about words done in bias relief? What kind of visual "resolution" do astral eyeballs have?

Rotbart van Dain...

Nov 23 2005, 04:37 PM

Post #42

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QUOTE (Hasaku)

Since you couldn't in SR3, I'd guess you still can't. It's just a simple action to switch back to normal sight if you need to read something.

In SR3, Astral Perception didn't disable your normal perception but overlayed it - so a Mage still in his meat body could read.

Hasaku

Nov 23 2005, 07:26 PM

Post #43

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Nov 23 2005, 09:37 AM)

QUOTE (Hasaku @ Nov 23 2005, 06:29 PM)

Since you couldn't in SR3, I'd guess you still can't. It's just a simple action to switch back to normal sight if you need to read something.

In SR3, Astral Perception didn't disable your normal perception but overlayed it - so a Mage still in his meat body could read.

I mean you couldn't read with your astral sense. Anyway, allowing flat text to be read from the astral plane is a pretty big change, from a game mechanics as well as an IC perspective. Since there's no mention of the essential nature of the astral plane changing since 2065, I'm going to assume you still can't. As for a projecting mage not being able to read flat text, wel, that's one of the downsides of projecting. Working as intended.

QUOTE

It was still tricky in previous editions. For instance, text printed on a flat page couldn't be read from the astral, but what about words done in bias relief? What kind of visual "resolution" do astral eyeballs have?

Meh. If you could read it with your meat eyes (assuming they worked ;)), I'd let you read it with your astral "eyes". It's practically a nonissue, since printed words are so much more common.

Feshy

Nov 23 2005, 09:35 PM

Post #44

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From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?)
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QUOTE

I mean you couldn't read with your astral sense.

I was under the impression that you could "read" -- but you would only get emotional content. That is, last quarter's expense to stock correlation report would look like a blank page, but poetry imparts its feelings.

Maybe I'm just making this up though; I haven't looked that recently.

So far as I know, SR4 doesn't mention written words specifically, so it's probably just a GM call. And SR4 does now talk about strong emotional content being left on otherwise inanimate objects -- so if last quarter's report was extremely stressful to the person handling it, you'd be able to tell that (with a sufficiently high assensing test)

But what I suggest does seem to fit the vague description given:

QUOTE

Things that exist only on the physical plane can be seen and heard from the astral, albeit with blurred features and indistinct sound—emotional content registers far more strongly than exact details.

That implies that you can't understand spoken words (only their emotional content -- at least, "indistinct sound" implies that to me), and I'd just apply the same to written words.

Lilt View Member Profile	Nov 23 2005, 11:44 PM Post #45
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032	Another thing to note is that a manifesting character now actually projects his perceptions back to the physical plane, thus he can now read the actual content rather than having to assense the emotional content if he's willing to risk his ghostly form being seen and the threat from physical manna effects.

Moonlight Song

Nov 25 2005, 11:59 PM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Lilt)

Another thing to note is that a manifesting character now actually projects his perceptions back to the physical plane, thus he can now read the actual content rather than having to assense the emotional content if he's willing to risk his ghostly form being seen and the threat from physical manna effects.

Precisely! :)

To me, it looks like an astrally-projected magician can only perceive the emotional content from items and persons but can also get access to the mundane content by simply manifesting or switching back to normal sight.

Note that while astral perception seems to be mostly a visual perception, it also encompasses hearing, touch and taste. As such, "astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character's physical sight" - p.182.

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