US Military's Joint Combat Pistol program

US Military's Joint Combat Pistol program

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:00 AM Post #51
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	It never said the I/O port has to be exposed to said elements, did it?

Critias View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:00 AM Post #52
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	What about something like just putting the exposed "pin" surface (assuming they make it a flat strip or similar, not an actual physical pin) beneath a grip or otherwise inside the weapon (not quite on the surface, essentially), but still easily accessible by the weapon being broken down? Any help at all?

ShadowDragon8685

Nov 24 2005, 11:01 AM

Post #53

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QUOTE (Critias)

What about something like just putting the exposed "pin" surface (assuming they make it a flat strip or similar, not an actual physical pin) beneath a grip or otherwise inside the weapon (not quite on the surface, essentially), but still easily accessible by the weapon being broken down?

Any help at all?

Exactly what I'm saying, crit.

Why not put it on the underside of the grip, with a plastic cover that you pop off?

Critias View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:08 AM Post #54
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Well, yeah. You just posted while I was typing, is all.

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:11 AM Post #55
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	That might be helpful. Ideally, you don't want to have to break it down to access it, but if that's what it takes... Other thing -- when it's "shut", is it air and water-tight? If not, it solves the problem of sand, dirt, etc, but not so much water and humidity. (Honestly, I'm not a big fan of removable covers -- in my book, anything that moves is a failure waiting to happen -- but I suppose that because you have to break down the weapon for cleaning anyway, it's no additional burden in this case. Not being a firearms expert, I had not initially considered that)

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:13 AM Post #56
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	Another thing I suppose you could do is put a small inductor in the device, and transfer power to it on one frequency and data off on another. That would solve the problem of being exposed, and if you make the inductor small, the thing should be undetectable except at extraordinarily short ranges (you'd practically have to be touching the guy holding it to detect it). As a bonus, it's a solid state, non-switching device, so it's almost failure proof if you don't do something stupid like short it.

Critias

Nov 24 2005, 11:30 AM

Post #57

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

(Honestly, I'm not a big fan of removable covers -- in my book, anything that moves is a failure waiting to happen -- but I suppose that because you have to break down the weapon for cleaning anyway, it's no additional burden in this case. Not being a firearms expert, I had not initially considered that)

Well, yeah, but I'm not so much thinking of necessarily having to completely strip the weapon down, as just... remove a magazine, or even just lock the slide back, or something.

I know on my Glock there's a big freakin' bag of empty right in the rear of the grip -- you can even buy a "plug" for $2-3 bucks just to close it up -- that could (from the sounds of things) hold most of this stuff, and with a plug in place could be completely covered/sealed.

A magnetic strip (if that's what we're talking about, for the inductor pad) or something could maybe just be on the inside of the magwell, or inside of the slide, or something, I'm thinking. Still not outside the weapon, but quite easily accessible without necessarily having to open/close some otherwise completely useless flap. Lock the slide back, remove a magazine (and, well, the weapon's gonna be empty before anyone wants to inspect it, anyways, right?), and there's all sorts of interior surface space there that might be utilized. I guess it would depend on what sort of damage would happen to that interface pad (for lack of a better term) from being exposed to the smoke, grit, etc, on the inside of the gun -- would it be better or worse than the elements outside?

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 11:58 AM Post #58
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Crit - bag of empty? I don't think I follow. You mean to say they left a void space on the rear of the grip that's exposed to the outside? Woulden't that damage ergonomics?

Critias View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 01:15 PM Post #59
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	If I were at home instead of sneaking on from work, I could find some pics for you -- there is essentially a big hole, the length of the grip, just behind the magwell in every Glock. Maybe big enough to stick your finger most of the way into, it's all a part of the ergonomics (the rounded off rear end of the grip that swells out, for lack of a better term, to fit into the curvature of your palm). And, yes, it's exposed (from the bottom of the grip) to the elements, unless you purchase a plug for it. More than detailing the gaping maw of the rear of a Glock, though, my point is that it would seem to me there's plenty of unused internal surface material on your average handgun ("average" in my case being only my Glock, the one handgun I've actually spent a good deal of time with in recent years), that's readily available without any sort of extensive disassembly of the handgun in question.

Link

Nov 24 2005, 01:27 PM

Post #60

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QUOTE

ugh, why do they have to specify that it requires a microsoft windows software for the download of the shot counter data?

QUOTE

But what's going to happen when the thing hits 5,000 rounds? Is a light going to turn on? Is it going to start playing the Star Spangled Banner?

It says MS, not necessarily Windows. With your wireless link to the xbox 360, xbox live is all setup to record everything from rounds fired to insurgents shot.
Killtacular.

PS. NATO gets PS3. Speaking of NATO, didn't the US adopt the 9mm for uniformity? Have they given up on that?

Ed_209a View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 01:36 PM Post #61
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128	Making a mechanical shot counter could be difficult because of the operations involved in doing a function check after cleaning the weapon. Also, where I was stuck in Kuwait, everyone with a weapon had to clear their weapons at the door to any building. These guys were clearing the weapons doxens of times a day. To the point we were haveing to repair safeties on the handguns. (Berettas) What just occurred to me, is use a sound powered system. The sound of the round goes off triggers the switch. Something like that can be self-contained, with no effect on the mechanism. You can stick it in any open space. I would put the access for the device somewhere the user would never need to look. For a handgun similar to the M9, put it under the side panels of the grip. No access port for the user to play with and break or lose. You have to remove the panels to access it at all.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 01:48 PM Post #62
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Ed: the first time someone lets loose from a SAW next to you, suddenly your armorer is asking how you fired a bajillion rounds out of your .45 pistol. And where he can get the mod kit to turn his into a belt-fed machine pistol.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 02:05 PM Post #63
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	It's pretty trivial to detect the difference between a round fired at a distance of under an inch and one fired at a foot or two, sound-wise. ~J

Ed_209a View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 02:45 PM Post #64
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128	Yeah, your detector would not just measure decibels, but frequency. You would get even better response if your microphone was listening to sound conducted through the frame itself.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 02:50 PM Post #65
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Well... Okay, fair enough. Still, I don't like the idea of relying on a sonic sensor.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 05:49 PM Post #66
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	data reading, close range induction coil or something like that. put the in a part of the grip (im guessing there should be enough room given the size of your avarage rfid tag). just strap a read around the grip and presto... a bit like a smartlink :P as for the sensor itself. i wonder if one can have it detect both a hammer strike and a movement of the slide. but not so much movement as when you clear the chamber after a dud or similar. that is if there is a diffrence between the two ;) ie, it detects a hammer strike, then a slide movement within x amount of time. any more time used and its a dud or similar.

otomik

Nov 24 2005, 06:15 PM

Post #67

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QUOTE (raygun)

Mostly because I'd forgotten that there was a P220R. That might work too, though I'm not sure that the aluminum receiver would live up to the threshold 20,000 round service life.

I like aluminum frames, ted nugent has an M9 with 100,000 rounds through it and only the locking block needed a replacement once. but I have little doubt GI Joe's M9 is treated a little rougher. Maybe a little sand grabs to the lube on the rails and sands down the frame. If they would just get rid of those checkmate mags and get Mecgar's instead...

anyway about the P220ST, I'd like to see them try to slim down the dimensions, the steel frame was made as thick as the aluminum frame model and the result is a lot of extra sport-oriented weight. There's got to be other more subtle ways of increasing frame life, for instance hardchrome the rails. http://www.trippresearch.com/tech/hardchro.../hardchrome.htm

The Browning BDM had a very skeltonized frame that worked well with it's grips, I'll have to find some pictures. If SIG would steal some tricks from the BDM it might be possible to come up with comfortable grip on a double stack .45, maybe something like thin aluminum grips with checkered surface and stippled rubber coatings. Most double stack .45s remind me of the horrible grip on a mac-10, it might be impossible to satisfy both the comfort and capacity objectives.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Of course, why not just issue our troops SMGs for an occupation role? Hmmmmmmm? Why not something simple and durable that's stood the test of time?

Submachine guns seem passe' in an era of the G36C, SIG 552, HK 53, Colt Commando, Micro-Tavor, etc. but an .45ACP PDW might be interesting. Make it real compact, something like the KRISS with it's innovative hacksaw handle that reduces felt recoil, combined with H&K MP7 mini-g36 gas system, then give it a Calico style helix mag or FN P90 style mag with bottom ejection, that would be interesting and it would look like something from Masamune Shirow comic books.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1463..._KRISS,,00.html

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 07:21 PM Post #68
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	WHAAAAT?! The King of Shine is wasting his time drawing weapons when he could be drawing more hentai? OUTRAGEOUS! I WILL NOT stand for it! Give me my gun!

Raygun

Nov 24 2005, 08:05 PM

Post #69

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QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 24 2005, 01:15 PM)

More than detailing the gaping maw of the rear of a Glock, though, my point is that it would seem to me there's plenty of unused internal surface material on your average handgun ("average" in my case being only my Glock, the one handgun I've actually spent a good deal of time with in recent years), that's readily available without any sort of extensive disassembly of the handgun in question.

Unfortunately, your Glock is kind of odd that way, being that it is one of a relative few striker-fired combat pistols out there. Most other handguns, using a more conventional hammer-based firing system, tend to put the hammer strut and mainspring right in that area, thus there isn't much free space there.

Also, if that space is free, it's likely to be used for the "exchangeable backstrap" objective in the JSP specification.

Not to say that there couldn't be space made for something like this on either kind of pistol. Unfortunately, I still fail to see the point of it (beyond the "oh, isn't that neat" factor), nor am I impressed with the idea of relegating things like firearms to the digital realm for the purposes of saving money on maintenance (assuming everything works right). It strikes me as particularly fucking stupid. I know I'm probably pissing into the wind saying this in an internet forum, but some things just don't need to be digital, guys. Track the serial numbers, read the manual, take the fucking gun apart and use your friggin' eyeballs. It works great. What can be gained by a shot counter is trivial at best.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 08:18 PM Post #70
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Maybe I'm dense... Can someone explain to me EXACTLY what an exchangable backstrap means? It SOUNDS like a replacable thing you use to hold the gun to your wrist.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 08:23 PM Post #71
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	It's the back of the pistol grip. Changing its size allows you to better fit various sizes of hands. One of the 92/M9's biggest criticisms was its fairly ungainly ergonomics in the hands of anyone less than 6' tall.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 08:28 PM Post #72
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	That's a good thing, isen't it? (Especially since most people are less than six feet.)

Arethusa View Member Profile	Nov 24 2005, 08:51 PM Post #73
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	It is, to some degree, but it's arguable that it's a much better thing in weapons designed for civilians or law enforcement, simply because the conditions of use are much harsher when you fight on a daily basis. Of course, it's a pretty good idea if executed properly, but that is a very tenuous thing when it comes to government contracts.

otomik

Nov 24 2005, 10:22 PM

Post #74

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QUOTE (Raygun)

Unfortunately, your Glock is kind of odd that way, being that it is one of a relative few striker-fired combat pistols out there. Most other handguns, using a more conventional hammer-based firing system, tend to put the hammer strut and mainspring right in that area, thus there isn't much free space there.

Also, if that space is free, it's likely to be used for the "exachangeable backstrap" objective in the JSP specification.

Not to say that there couldn't be space made for something like this on eithe kind of pistol. Unfortunately, I still fail to see the point of it (beyond the "oh, isn't that neat" factor), nor am I impressed with the idea of relegating things like firearms to the digital realm for the purposes of saving money on maintenance (assuming everything works right). It strikes me as particularly fucking stupid. I know I'm probably pissing into the wind saying this in an internet forum, but some things just don't need to be digital, guys. Track the serial numbers, read the manual, take the fucking gun apart and use your friggin' eyeballs. It works great. What can be gained by a shot counter is trivial at best.

Military planners have a certain vision for the future that keeps projects like the XM29 and V22 Osprey afloat despite reason and experience, so it shall be with the electronic shot counter widget.

Glock is starting to use that mystery space for their new internal gun lock. What is the mystery space for? legislation like guns locks and user verification . :S

The skeletonized frame of a SIG or Makarov which leaves the mainspring exposed is plenty of room for a interchangable backstrap system, striker fired isn't needed for interchangable backstrap.

thinking of pistols with interchangable backstraps
Walther P99 - striker fired
SIG PRO - hammer fired
S&W M&P - striker fired
H&K P3000 - hammer fired
FN FNP/ Browning PRO - hammer fired

QUOTE

It's the back of the pistol grip. Changing its size allows you to better fit various sizes of hands. One of the 92/M9's biggest criticisms was its fairly ungainly ergonomics in the hands of anyone less than 6' tall.

okay I'm 6' tall but this reminds me of a post on another forum I frequent.

http://www.berettaforum.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi...0725;p=1#000011

QUOTE (Mastrogiacomo)

If you're concerned about how your wife will like the grip, this is something she should try. I'm probably not much different in size from her, 5'2" and 120lbs and I don't have a problem with the full size 92FS or compacts. I did enjoy the Vertec grip too as stated so if this gun will be used by the both you, you should both be handling this in the shop before you buy. She may find the compact "chunky." I didn't but everyone's grip preference will vary.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Nov 25 2005, 12:21 AM Post #75
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	Okay, here's a question... Instead of a customized backstrap, coulden't you design the guns to accept a variety of slightly-different grips to accomodate different shooters?

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