Character Creation Min-Maxing 101, Making the most out of 400 points. Options

[Valatar]

As anyone who has tried to make a SR4 character could attest to, four hundred points can flow away like water, especially for some of the more demanding abilities like technomancy. With that in mind, I've assembled a quick little cheat sheet on the karma value of the various starting abilities. I hope it helps folks plan their characters to make the most of the build points.

Since it involves loads of tables, I couldn't actually include it in the body of the post, I'm 'fraid you'll have to make do with an external link:

http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/sr4bpa.htm

[Feshy]

Are you sure the +5 row for base human attributes is correct? It shows 62 karma, but a multiple of less than 1. Should take 60 BP, which is less than 62 karma, and which therefore should yield a number > 1?

Actually, is 62 karma right? Should be (2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6)*3, which is 60 karma, right?

Also, on your notes, you talk briefly about foci, and how in general they aren't a good deal (unless money will be a big factor. It probably will, but that will have to be weighed outside the tables.) But.. Power foci have a ratio of 1.33, which is really pretty good (same ballpark as skill levels at 4, and better than any attribute purchases.) Long weapon foci are even better, as you mention.

And yea, your notes about complex forms are the same that I've seen. They are really where all your BP *need* to go if you are a technomancer; even though they leave you with almost nothing left (once you buy the necessary skills and attributes.)

All in all, a handy table.

[Valatar]

Whup, I typoed that first column on the karma costs, thanks for catching it.

[santeria]

Very nice. Thanks a ton.

[Jaid]

you should probably mention skill specialisation in there somewhere too. you know, the fact that it cost equal BP and karma, for example. and is therefore a relatively sub-optimal use of your BP.

also, a little more detail on the BP issue as it relates to metatypes would be nice...

[edit] reading that over, i realised i only pointed out flaws, and i didn't want you to think i thought it was poorly done or anything :oops: it's really quite nice, i just had a few suggestions to give that would make it that extra little bit better ;) [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Nov 26 2005, 03:39 AM

[Aza]

for metatypes, negatives to attributes still start at 1 point, while positives add to starting score, so they dont really count towards karma efficency

Human 0BP gives +1 edge = 10bp worth of improvements
Ork 20BP gives +3body +2str = 50bp worth of improvements
Dwarf 25bp gives +1bod +4str = 50bp worth of improvements
Elf 30bp gives +1agi +2cha = 30bp worth of improvements
troll 40bp gives +4bod +4str=80bp worth of improvements

So troll is the most efficient in terms of free starting BP, and elf the least efficient.
Of course this all depends on which stats you intend to increase, and by how much so you cant really calculate a karma efficency for them.

[Squinky]

Dwarfs do not have +4 strength...(its +2 same as Orks)

And if your going that route, you need to account for bonuses like lowlight, reach, dermal plating and all that crap...

[Valatar]

I've updated the page with a few changes, including karma values for the various races and their bonus attributes.

[Clyde]

Low light and thermo can be had so cheap in contact lenses or goggles that they don't even rate 1 BP in my book (certainly it's less than 5,000 :nuyen: to get them however you like).

The dwarf's +2 pathogen and toxin resistance may be worth a bit though - what are cyber/bio equivalents?

[Lilt]

I think that your numbers are off when it comes to the foci section. Including the BP price to buy them at chargen without a similar equation for price to karma during the game is not a valid comparisson. Simply because you have exact measures for one and not for the other does not mean you can ignore the cost to buy it after chargen! An actual equivalent comparisson would be BP to bind versus karma to bind, with a note that you also need to pay for the foci in either case, or some rough guesstimates at cash->karma/karma->cash ratios factored in so that the figures. You can make the cash ->karma as conservative as you like, but even with 10k :nuyen: per karma (which I'm sure you'll agree is a very harsh, worst-case, estimate) the ratio for power foci jumps to 1.75.

I'd definately say that power foci are worth it at chargen as an initial power boost, even including the BP cost to buy the foci. It costs 6BP for effectively +1 to 5-6 skills (counterspelling(dispelling), ritual spellcasting, spellcasting, banishing, binding, and summoning) meanwhile initiation cannot be bought at chargen and I'd expect many mages to be saving their in-game karma for that.

Binding a focus at chargen is even more of a non-issue if it's possible to upgrade foci, but the jury is still out on that issue. Even without the potential to upgrade I'm still going with a force 2 power focus for my planned magetype at chargen as I'm sure I'll have other things to spend the 50k nuyen and 16 karma on during the game.

[Valatar]

The money issue is mentioned on the page under the focus table. Regardless of whatever the value of money will be in anyone's game, a power focus is going to cost twelve build points to get at character generation, not two, so people trying to allocate their build points need to take the whole cost into consideration. At two BP I'd've recommended that mages buy three each of every focus, maybe a color-coordinated set for each day of the week. At six to twelve BP, however, I'm confident in suggesting that a mage strongly consider buying spells instead. Not only are spells much cheaper to buy at creation than later in the game, they never need to be upgraded, and you save anywhere from five hundred to two thousand nuyen per spell, since the formulae don't need to be purchased as they do in game.

Foci are wonderful, but a spellslinger lives and dies by their spellbook. All the foci in the world can't make up for not having that one spell that you absolutely entirely need right this instant to save the party.

[Edit: If, of course, a mage has points left over after buying all the spells they can purchase at creation, I'd certainly be looking at a power focus as the next thing on the list.]

[Demon_Bob]

Don't forget the skillwire system for all those usefull skills you would like to have but never really plan to raise above 3. As a skill rating of 3 costs 9K with skillwires, and a natural skill of that level costs 12BP. The downside is that you dont get to use edge for skillwires.

[jervinator]

[Gothic Rose]

[Gothic Rose]

And I'm suddenly very sad. Ghouls, according to that system, would cost 160 Build Points - and that's assuming that you believe their other benefits (Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Smell), Natural Weapon (Claws: DV 4P, AP 0), natural magic rating 1[?]) and their drawbacks (Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh), Reduced Senses (Blind), natural essence: 5) equal out (I happen to think they do)

Ouch.

[Lilt]

[ElFenrir]

whew...equations make Fen's head spin :grinbig:

I do notice the amount of minmaxing went up in SR4. In SR3, due to the lack of pools for most out of combat skills, it sort of behooved the character to pump those skills. Even a combat oriented character could dump 3s and 4s in main skills with a specialization with the combat pool...but a tech character, unless they had an Encephalon or Cerebral Booster...had no other pool to work with...and that 3 BR Car wouldn't get you very far.

In other words, in SR3, when I was playing a more tech character(I had a techwiz-rigger sort of combo), I pumped a little into some self defense skills, the rest I bombed right into the BR and vehicle skills as high as possible...you don't get much pool or supposrt help with them. A Pistols(Browning)2(4) went a lot further than Electronics BR 3 in other words. I usually go into creation with a solid idea of what i want the character to be like, then pop in the attribs and skills, do a little number crunching, and be done with it in SR3. After that, you can up the smaller skills with Karma, and some attributes.

However, in SR4, with the dice pool system...it opens up a whole nother can of worms.

I think there is both 'good' and 'bad' min-maxing. Good min maxing is when you take the skills that you think fit your character, then try to get the most out of them. Bad is when you just throw on the skills and attributes that 'win' a lot just for that sake, then try to make the one person party.

Like I said, seems like SR4 has a LOT more min maxing going. With Attributes costing more karma to up, you want to nail down your primary ones at the start. Same with the skills, tho those aren't terrible....anything over four tho and your throwing in 10 or so karma a pop.

For my first SR4 character, I remade and converted my SR3 shaman. He was really well rounded in terms of spellslinging and combat, and i didn't hve much money for him, so basically, with the free spell points SR3 folks got, I was gravy...i had his stats where i wanted them, and i didn't need to up em, and his skills were solid, with a few needing karma, but most of his karma could purely go to magical. One thing SR3 had was the ability to sort of 'max' out a section of your character, so you didn't even need karma for it anymore. My Wolf shaman had attributes pretty high...in shape, etc, which i saw for him. But i didn't plan on playing with them too much more after that. He still sucked Karma down pretty efficently, and wouldn't be as balls out magically powerful than a straight, non physical mage, but he was balanced. I liked that. To get a little, you gotta give a little.

In the SR4, 'well rounded magician' translates to 'massive karma toilet' I find, even moreso than SR3. Of course the power level is a little lower out of the box in SR4(which is cool), but after slamming down his skills and attributes...sweet jesus am I gonna need to drop a LOT of karma into this guy. I went for the 'average and a little above' with the BPs, rather than maxing the stuff at the start...but i am getting the feeling most people find in SR4 it's better to do that.

I also noticed in SR4 a change in 'out of the box' power for a lot of characters. (Note when I say 'power', i don't mean 'combat potential' necessarily...i mean 'power at what they specialize in', be it magic, guns, or social canny.)Where in SR3, a samurai out of the box could annihilate an adept...in SR4, an adept out of the box is absolutely sick...(Im playing one now and i see a HUGE difference in an out of the box adept. In whatever you do...be it a combat adept, social adept, stealth adept, or even a well rounded adept. I have a combo social and unarmed adept and I managed to get near every power and skill i wanted...any karma thrown my way boosts a bit of the lower skills and goes to initation and a couple attributes.) Mages out of the box these days I think are a little less powerful than their SR3 counterparts. The Face in SR3 was leaps over the out of the box SR4 face(the contact rules. That SR3 Face was practically dining with Lofwyr on weekend dates. ;)) I don't notice a lot of difference with the investigator, ganger or thug types(tho I think in SR4 i give them a bit more edge due to, well, Edge.) Tech characters in SR4 I think get a little more out of the box due to the new dice pool system(you don't need to burn such massive points into their skills anymore to be good.)

Anyone else notice the out of the box differences?

And I might need to study this chart thingy...as I want my shaman to be nice and rounded(not the grand master of anything, but nice around the board), but i don't think Im going to escape him being the karma vacum regardless.

[Azralon]

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, I can really see that. Although it seems the system as a whole is a bit lesser(in SR3, having a 4 in B/R Car was good, but not what you wanted if you were the vehicle rigger...now it's a good score to have an a main skill).

[FrankTrollman]

The combination of the Karma System and the BP system make starting as a "well-rounded character" very suboptimal. If you start with two 3s in your attributes, it will cost 54 Karma to get them both up to 5. If you start with a 1 and a 5 (costing the same BPs), it will cost you 42 Karma to jack them both up to 5.

Even if in the long run you intend to be a diverse, well-rounded character, it is to your advantage to begin play as a specialist and then spend your Karma on learning new tricks.

This is why so many people play with either a SeCKsY type Karma-based character generation system, or hand out BPs for completing missions.

-Frank

[caramel frappucc...]

[FrankTrollman]

[Taki]

... not enough people ...
why my GM don't get the point ?
why simple maths look so strange to some people ? (who can developers be part of those ??????)

I am forced to min/max my characters cause of my GM :rotfl: (if I don't maximise BP, the system will steal my karma points !!!)

[caramel frappucc...]

[blakkie]