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> Initiation versus Magic Attribute Increase, Which is it better to do?
Lilt
post Nov 26 2005, 03:57 PM
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Lets say your character is initiate grade 1 with a magic attribute of 6. Are you better-off increasing your magic rating or taking the next grade of initiation?

On one hand increasing your magic rating gives you another die to cast/summon with, increases the force threshold at which you take physical or stun drain, and lets you castspells with a total force 2 higher.

On the other hand, initiation is cheaper until your magic attribute is lagging behind by about 4, initiation gives you a metamagical ability, and the power of your metamagical abilities are increased by your total initiation grade. Looking at the metamagics available, it's noteable that a character with Centering and Shielding gets an extra die on both counterspelling and drain resistance tests.

A good start for a character would probably be to initiate several, perhaps 3, times. Taking the right metamagics, that gives them 3 extra dice to resist drain and increases counterspelling ability.

Assuming you start off with good spellcasting/conjuring ability (5 magic + 4 skill + F2 Power Focus = 11 dice before totem mods) you should be able to summon beyond your ability to resist drain (summoning a force 10 spirit for 6.6 or so drain) and overcast combat spells to the extent that you'd take damage normally.

With combat spells, dice are better spent on the drain resistance test than the casting test as two successes on casting are worth one on drain. IE: Rather than getting 2 successes on casting, you may as well cast the spell 2 force higher and need 1 more success to take the drain. The 2 dice on casting = 1 on drain principle is, of-course, only true if you can cast the spell at the higher force. Care must be taken that the spell isn't fully resisted either, as then you have just spent time and risked drain for nothing.

Initiating to increase drain resistance ability is fairly cheap. Increasing magic attribute and casting/summoning skills after character creation is, on the other hand, fairly expensive. As a general guide I'd suggest increasing casting/summoning ability at character creation then initiating several times after character generation to increase drain resistance by way of multiple initiations. Only increase magic after either your opponents are often fully resisting your spells or you can take the drain from most of what you can do.

Note that I can't find anything under SR4 to say that casting dice may normally be witheld to help resist drain. Spellcasting, Summoning, and Binding Foci are the only dice that can be witheld from casting to resist drain as far as I can tell.
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Gothic Rose
post Nov 26 2005, 04:23 PM
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Unless, of course, you're an Adept, in which case, all of the metamagics SUCK for you.
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Lilt
post Nov 26 2005, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
Unless, of course, you're an Adept, in which case, all of the metamagics SUCK for you.

Well, yes. In that case it's much less of an issue.
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PlatonicPimp
post Nov 26 2005, 05:11 PM
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Unless, of course, you are a mystic adept, in which case you can use the metamagics just fine, and use the increase in magic to buy adept powers anyway.
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Gothic Rose
post Nov 26 2005, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Unless, of course, you are a mystic adept, in which case you can use the metamagics just fine, and use the increase in magic to buy adept powers anyway.

True.
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blakkie
post Nov 26 2005, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Nov 26 2005, 11:11 AM)
Unless, of course, you are a mystic adept, in which case you can use the metamagics just fine, and use the increase in magic to buy adept powers anyway.

I think it depends somewhat on what your mage/adept split of Magic is. Low casting/summoning Magic really bites in hard, unless the particular metamagic can address the limitation on Force you'll want to clear that up pretty quick too.

Regular mage though i could see being seriously tempted to take it out to maybe even 5 Grades before moving past Magic 6. It'll depend somewhat on what the full selection of metamagic is. Of the 5 right now Quickening chews too much karma to be worth it as a 5th Grade over a lower cost Magic 7. *shrug*
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Lilt
post Nov 26 2005, 06:13 PM
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Another thing I just realised is that it can be useful to have both power and spell foci. Although only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool, you can use the power focus to cast/summon/bind and the spellcasting/summoning/binding focus for the drain.

Low Magic/High adept is still a workable split as far as just initiating goes. What it means is sticking to high-drain but high-effect spells like area-effect/indirect combat spells like Ball Lightning.
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Feshy
post Nov 26 2005, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE
Another thing I just realised is that it can be useful to have both power and spell foci. Although only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool, you can use the power focus to cast/summon/bind and the spellcasting/summoning/binding focus for the drain.


Yea, I noticed this too. The only trouble is that spell foci have to be tuned to only a single spell category. Still, combat and manipulation spells both have a lot of high drain codes; those would be ideal for spell foci.
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Eyeless Blond
post Nov 26 2005, 06:48 PM
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Hm. Now here's a question: can foci be upgraded? Can you pay the cost difference in karma and nuyen and increase the Force of a focus, or are you basically SOL when you want to get a better one?
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 26 2005, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Hm. Now here's a question: can foci be upgraded? Can you pay the cost difference in karma and nuyen and increase the Force of a focus, or are you basically SOL when you want to get a better one?

Enchanting rules do not currently exist, but you used to be able to improve enchantments. The rules were kind of complicated, and were in the Magic book.

Street Magic will have rules for Enchanting according to the blurb on Fanpro's site, so I would expect that rules for improving foci would be in there. Until then I would suggest a stopgap measure of paying a third party enchanter the difference in :nuyen: and paying the difference in Karma yourself.

The enchanting time rules don't exist of course, so your game master will just have to make something up.

-Frank
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Lilt
post Nov 26 2005, 07:46 PM
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It'd really suck if you couldn't upgrade foci. As there's no point in having a force 1 and force 2 focus of the same type, not being able to upgrade woudl lead to a lot of wasted karma.

With the possible exception of upgrading cyberware grades (normal->alpha->beta->delta) I'd allow virtually every other item in the book to be upgraded.
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Liper
post Nov 27 2005, 03:34 AM
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you don't allow upgrading of cyberwear but you allow foci?

Unlike upgrading cyber, foci when upgraded provides a immediate benefit.

When you upgrade cyber, you just simply add more room for other pieces which in turn cost money.

Foci are EXTREMELY powerful, to upgrade them for the difference is silly, specially when you consider what it takes to make them.

You can perhaps discount the physical cost of course, but not the karrma.
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Feshy
post Nov 27 2005, 03:42 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Hm. Now here's a question: can foci be upgraded? Can you pay the cost difference in karma and nuyen and increase the Force of a focus, or are you basically SOL when you want to get a better one?

I certainly hope so; if for no other reason than there are no "un-bonding" rules, and you can't have more foci bound than your magic rating. Eventually, you's have to initiate to improve a focus, if there is no way to upgrade.
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Dranem
post Nov 27 2005, 04:11 AM
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If you destroy a focus, the bond is lost. One of the options in SR3 (unless you went through the complicated rules) was to destroy the focus, thus breaking the bond between you and the item. Usually the oricalcum could be salvaged, and you would use that, and additional materials to create a higher focus. This process, of course, is expensive - both in nuyen and in karma, (you don't get back the karma you spent to bond the original foci) but it probably your best option.
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blakkie
post Nov 27 2005, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Feshy @ Nov 26 2005, 09:42 PM)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Nov 26 2005, 01:48 PM)
Hm. Now here's a question: can foci be upgraded? Can you pay the cost difference in karma and nuyen and increase the Force of a focus, or are you basically SOL when you want to get a better one?

I certainly hope so; if for no other reason than there are no "un-bonding" rules, and you can't have more foci bound than your magic rating. Eventually, you's have to initiate to improve a focus, if there is no way to upgrade.

There is one way given explicitly, and another could be implied as obvious.

QUOTE (page 191)
... you have to bond it to yourself before you can use it, which severs the bond with the previous owner.


The second you could fairly safely imply is the physical disinigration of the foci, but no rules are given for that. Neither are there rules or any mention of how you might try disrupt or destroy the astral construct of a foci (no resistance vs. spells described or such that i can recall) besides the owner passing through someone else's ward while carrying the activated focus, which only disrupts (deactivating) an active focus. As far as i can see they dropped [so far] the SR3 Astral methods to permanently destroyed the focus enchantment by either inflicting Deadly damage (after Forcex2 soak roll) or rolling at least 1 success on a Cha (Original Forcex2 ) test against a focus already reduced to 0 Force.

BTW SR4 foci must be in the direct possesion of the owner to be active. SR3 was written this way too, but RAW seemed generally ignored by GMs/players? MitS rules for Anchor foci suggest it's authors ignored that requirement too. ;)

This creates weirdness in combination with SR4 Astral Tracking:

QUOTE (page 185)
Active spells are linked
to their casters, spirits are linked to their masters, astrally-projecting
magicians are linked to their physical bodies, and foci and
magical lodges are linked to the magicians who activated them.


The way that is written either it can be used to track back to every mage who ever activated the focus, or the focus can't be used to track back to the owner unless the owner is holding it. :rotfl:


P.S. Sustaining foci functioning is described differently than SR3 in that it says the mage casts the spell "through" the foci to use them. The wording suggests you have to decide at the casting whether to use a focus or yourself to sustain, and can't reverse that decision either way once the spell is cast. SR3 was a lot more vague on the subject, leaving it wide open. At least in SR4 when you bond you don't have to name the one and only spell that Sustaining focus works with, which is SR3 RAW. Did anyone follow/enforce that SR3 rule?
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Feshy
post Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE
... you have to bond it to yourself before you can use it, which severs the bond with the previous owner.


Yes, I had seen that too, but I guess I just considered it "not an option" -- because I picture it going like this:

RunnerMage: "Well, I'm full of foci, time to replace this dusty old force 3 sustaining focus. I know, I'll sell it!"

*wanders over to talismonger, sets up a deal*

ShadyOrc: "So, you've got the focus for sale?"

RunnerMage: "Ayup. You going to bond this thing soon, so I can bond my new one?"

ShadyOrc: "Uh... sure. I promise you won't have to worry at all about bonding your new foci after you sell me your old one. You take credit?"

RunnerMage: "Uh.... okay... just sign this form saying you won't use this focus as a ritual link to fireball me in my sleep...."

Yea. Not going to hand over a focus to anyone. Unless, as you suggest:

QUOTE
or the focus can't be used to track back to the owner unless the owner is holding it.


Which the rules do seem to support... :eek:

Edit -

QUOTE
As far as i can see they dropped [so far] the SR3 Astral methods to permanently destroyed the focus enchantment


And I for one am glad of that. Mages are already huge karma sinks, and I appreciate not risking loosing my large karmic investment to random astral passers-by.

On the other hand, that means quickening is now that much more useless. Unless, that is, you do it "right" with huge karma investments. Overcast at 10 or so, pay double the karma, and wards / dispelling will trouble you no further.
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Eyeless Blond
post Nov 27 2005, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Feshy)
On the other hand, that means quickening is now that much more useless. Unless, that is, you do it "right" with huge karma investments. Overcast at 10 or so, pay double the karma, and wards / dispelling will trouble you no further.

Except for the part where you are about as stealthy as a guy throwing a brick through a window every time you try to pass through a ward undetected. :P
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Lilt
post Nov 28 2005, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Liper)
you don't allow upgrading of cyberwear but you allow foci?

Unlike upgrading cyber, foci when upgraded provides a immediate benefit.

When you upgrade cyber, you just simply add more room for other pieces which in turn cost money.

Foci are EXTREMELY powerful, to upgrade them for the difference is silly, specially when you consider what it takes to make them.

You can perhaps discount the physical cost of course, but not the karrma.

Cyberware/Bioware ratings could be upgraded easily, it's just as difficult as adding an extra motor, some extra tissue, or second camera matrix.

Upgrading from one cyber/bioware grade to the next without replacing the whole thing is a bit of a strech, but I'm not flat-out denying that it could be done. It just depends on where you view the essence reductions as coming from, and what process by which it happens.

The only real limit is the plausability of it all. IE: How would you explain that (possibly bioware) items have been upgraded in order to make them interfere with the body less and harder to detect? Could you explain the difference in price being exactly the difference in cost between the original grade and the higher grade? I'm not saying that it shouldn't be possible, only that I can't see how it would be possible.

Upgrading cyberware rating is analogous to upgrading focus force, both of which I think should be fully possible. Upgrading cyberware grade so that they might install new types of cyberware is analogous to increasing the character's logic attribute so that they might bond more foci, both of which cost a fair bit of money/karma.
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Liper
post Nov 28 2005, 08:08 PM
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I didn't say anything about bioware hehe, that's like trying to change a stake from a 8oz to a 16oz after it's been cut from the cow and cooked.

Cyber is a simple matter of replacing the connectors, upgrading parts, the shell would still stay, and if you simply removed the whole thing you can call it part of the sell back price or whatever.

Upgrading a piece of cyber from basic to alpha, you pay the cost of the arm again.

Alpha to beta, you pay twice the cost of a alpha arm to do, and only net a small gain.

Beta to Delta, you pay 3times the cost of a beta for a good gain. or the equivelent of 8 basic limbs.
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Azralon
post Nov 28 2005, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Feshy @ Nov 27 2005, 06:31 AM)
Not going to hand over a focus to anyone.

Didn't the "first bonding" segment of (SR3) enchanting make a newly-constructed focus bound to its creator? So basically talismongering consists of selling your customers convenient methods of killing you in your sleep. :|

Amendment: Nowadays all it would do is give you a method of astrally tracking the owner of the focus. Ritual sorcery requires a spotter to be assensing the target during the whole process and you can't just pump the ritual through a focus, tissue sample, or voodoo doll anymore.

So, in theory, any bona fide talismonger is probably going to have some sort of defenses (or at least, objections) to someone assensing them for a few hours at a time.

Even so I'd prefer it if anyone with a Magic rating could spend a Complex Action and a touch to automatically unbind one of their foci.
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Liper
post Nov 28 2005, 10:06 PM
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Foci's do have binds to thier creators until bound.

Same with artwork, and any labor of love.

To remove that is to remove a very large chunk of SR lore.

Who really cares to blast to bits some talisman maker in albania, unless you're a SR making foci and selling them for a profit (unlikely) there's no real concern for the link process, where's the money to be made nuking random talisman makers? =p
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blakkie
post Nov 28 2005, 10:16 PM
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The two that come up off the top of my head are:
1) Selling him "Fireball Insurance".
2) Mind control of the talismonger for emptying out his bank account and/or doing your dirty work.
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Liper
post Nov 28 2005, 10:17 PM
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Pretty good odds though, any talisman maker has a) magical ability (yeah it's a requirment) and b) has made his own foci and can handle a ritual sending.
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blakkie
post Nov 28 2005, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Liper @ Nov 28 2005, 04:17 PM)
Pretty good odds though, any talisman maker has a) magical ability (yeah it's a requirment) and b) has made his own foci and can handle a ritual sending.

*shrug* Define "handle" in the situation where the system generally favours offense over defense and the spellcaster is being aided by as many as 6 others tossing in an extra die for every success they roll? Sure the talismonger can spend his entire life behind a bunch ongoing wards. But it doesn't look like that'll protect from a ritual coming out of the metaplanes.

So 'monger, whatcha gonna do when a circle of Spirits of Man comes down on you? :(

EDIT: Hrmmm, actually it looks like Spirits of Man only have Spellcasting. Woe to those that ever cross a spirit type that can have Ritual Spellcasting. :(
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 28 2005, 10:37 PM
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Well, there are only 6 extra participants if you get 7 people into a room together who have the same tradition and Exceptional Ability: Ritual Spellcasting. The maximum ritual participants are set by the lowest skill, not the highest, so usually ritual sendings are pretty small.

That and ritual sendings require a spotter, who is usually going to be a bound spirit (since that's the only non-participant who can go, and you need every participant you can get). While a ritual spell could potentially be a big thing, in practice it never is. Protecting yourself from it is just a matter of fighting the spotter. You just have to beat a single bound spirit, and you can use your own spirits all you want.

-Frank
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