 SoA and India |
  |
 Nov 26 2005, 07:07 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
I haven't really had a chance to look at the book until now and even then I've only skimmed some parts of it. One bit that did surprise me though, aside from the slightly ham-handed 'Oh that's the nuclear exchange no-one ever talks about', was that India managed to keep itself together. Apart from Khalistan in the north and Assam being absorbed into the Bangla Commonwealth - I always thought the tribes out there were closer to the Sino-Tibetian family than the Bangladeshi one.
I figured with all the chaos and death that went down out there there'd be a bit more Balkanisation, especially considering that there a number of active independence movements calling for greater autonomy or straight out seperation either active or currently with a cease-fire that there are nowadays. So I started this thread mainly to ask the author/s, I forget who wrote it, why they decided to go this route. So, gays and gals, why did you? :) |
 |
 
|
|
Nov 26 2005, 07:34 PM
Post
#2
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
Assam has a lot of bangladeshi immigrants and musmlims along with musmlim militant organizations. religion is more important than ethnicity i guess. I don't have SoA, is india hindu fascist like BJP? indian states already have a lot of autonomy, balkanization isn't necessary. ever been there? i mean some of those states are communist (west bengal), there's a lot of wiggle room in the indian union. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 26 2005, 08:18 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The United Nations recognizes ongoing civil conflicts in Assam, Kashmir, and West Bengal, and there are current ceasefires in Nagaland, Manipur, Punjab, and Tamil Nadu. The concept of India holding all that together under the assault of world-wide sessessionism that destroyed the United States, the People's Republic of China, the Bundesrepublik of Deutschland, and the Russian Federation is outright laughable. If the Tamil Tigers got access to magical powers and 1% of them were able to mimic the destructive power of an assault rifle while naked, Tamil-Nadu is gone. If the Naga tribes are able to bend the wilderness to their will, Nagaland defederates. It's that simple.
I really got the impression that the authors of India got lazy and just did a bunch of research on one group (the Brahmin of Delhi), and then announced that they were in control of everything. It's rather nicely researched Hinduism, it goes into a lot of detail on one group of Hindus - but the subcontinent has over a Billion people on it and that really isn't enough. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Nov 26 2005, 11:02 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
it might not be a situation like in the UCAS where only the Native Americans have magical power, what about the thousands of loyal Gurkha and Sikh physad ass kickers, they can hold India together.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2005, 12:35 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Well the Sikh's decided to stake out their own little square of land called Khalistan and got a face full of nuclear fallout for their troubles, as for the Gurkhas the Indian's only have six regiments of them AFAIK plus there's nothing to say they'd be any more magically active than anyone else on average.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2005, 12:44 AM
Post
#6
|
|||||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As the author of this chapter, let me get this out of the way right from the beginning. My research amounted to 4 years worth of studies in Comparative Religions, 2 years' work at the Institute of Strategic and International Studies of Lisbon (Office for Middle Eastern and Near Asian Studies), followed by 3 years as a part-time research assistant doing fieldwork among Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim Indians, Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Tamil from 1st generation immigrant communities. I've been invited into their homes, attended marriages and ceremonies normally closed to foreigners, and been at their temples and mosques for rites of passage. I've spoken at length with Brahmin, Vaishya, Sikh and Bangla elders and my girlfriend has had the good fortune to interview their women (amongst them several Shakti devotees - witchdoctors). Finally, I've also been to India and Bangladesh for a brief stays with relatives of friends and lived in their homes in backwater towns. My research doesn't come straight from books or from the news reports, it comes from actual contact with the people, their culture, their beliefs and hearing their different views on the same issues.
If you're grouping those conflicts together, it means you have a very limited understanding of the scope of those conflicts, the type of conflict they are, and what kind of issues they entail. Conflicts in the Punjab and West Bengal are offshoots of the problems in Kashmir and Bangladesh (and not independent situations) and have to do with the treatment of religious minorities (namely Muslims and Sikhs), only the Assam and Tamil have actually had organized armed insurgency on any remarkable scale (and in the later case it is only an offshoot of the Sri Lanka minority LTTE problem). The cease-fires are in place because their claims have been partially addressed by increased autonomy and better representation of these minorities (well, in the case of Assam it looks like they're still screwed) - since the groups involved in either were never representative of a significant portion of the local population (in Assam's case less than 20% of the local population - according to Japanese observers to the 2003/4 peace talks - supports ULFA, mainly because they belong to other tribes).
The events in Russia and China (at least as detailed in SR) result from schisms within significant segments of the overall population. Germany remains federated and but even there the autonomy of its states reflects exaggerated aspects of local majority culture today. The fate of the US poses a unique situation which has been chalked up to the initial concept of Native access to high magic before the US even understood how to control it. These in no way compare with any Indian situation today except possibly Kashmir and the Sikh/Kalistan/Punjab issue (which are actually resolved in SoA). First, Indian Tamil were less than 22% of the Indian population in Tamil Nadu in the last census, and are decreasing every year (in a not entirely innocent development) - nationwide they represent less than 1% of the population. Second, most Indian Tamil are Hindus and a surprising number vote BJP. Third, even if 1% of Tamil separatists were magically active they're up against 1% of the remaining 99% of the 1 billion population buoyed by a Hindu nationalist revival. If that didn't fuel nationalist spirit then consider that even then magic only gives you an edge when the opposition doesn't have its equal or better (which didn't happen in India) and though low-scale guerrilla insurgency is practically impossible to extinguish the chances of it being successful are nil when the majority of the local population doesn't subscribe to those beliefs (ie. worse case scenario it devolves into the FARC in Colombia, or the FLEC in Cabinda, or the True IRA in Ireland, and not for instance comparable to Muslim insurgents in Tchechenia). As for the Naga, they number less than 1 million in India (Nagaland), the conflict is mixed nationalist and religious, and most Nagas have recognized that violent insurgency in India won't resolve the problem (because most of the problem is actually in neighboring Myanmar) leading to the 2000 Peace Initiative which has since been reinforced by further representation concessions made by the Congress Party after its election. Even were the conflict to continue there were 12 different insurgent factions (in India and Myanmar), all simultaneously at each other's throats and fighting for different goals. Independence is not on the cards today, and it wouldn't be after the Awakening reinforces Hindu nationalism (the BJP is in power for a significant portion of the 21st century in the canon India), it means the central government abandonning these territories to minority factions. Unless central government in India is shattered (which it wasn't) this is not going to happen.
I have no idea what the hell you mean by one "group of Hindus". Are you aware that the varnas and the joti permeate all of Hindu society from north to south of the country? That the caste system is as integral to all forms of Hinduism as the (explaing why the Brits never managed to stamp it out)? That the Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya (these three are known as twice-born castes), Shudra (the four main varnas) and their various subcastes (called joti) are essential to Hindu culture because they represent a person's natural place on the Wheel of existence. That minority sects like the Jainists follow the same or equivalent caste system? And even Indian Muslims have been known to differ to the (Hindu) caste system when arranjing marriages.
Impressions are often decieving. Your comments regarding the Brahmin caste tells me you have a lot of research to do before you start calling points on other people's work, since you're apparently unaware of or chosing to ignore the ramifications of the Indian caste system (both today and in 206x when its been blostered by divine signs and the return of magic) - try starting with the Bhagavad Gita which is drilled into any good Hindu (specially the twice-born) from a tender age by their family and parents (if not by "the system" itself). Then try looking into household rituals and how they differ from caste to caste and reinforce the caste relations. If you're really into it you might want to look at some of the problems that affected public education in southern India in the 1990s and how that's been used by the BJP to reinforce nationalism and caste relations. If you look into it, you'll find there's a reason the Western Indian states vote BJP. Same for the Southwest. There are also reasons why most Bollywood stars are brahmin or kshatriya. And why communist worker movements in Kolkotta are dominated by vaishya rather than shudra... For the record, Flakjacket is right about the dominant ethnicities in Assam (and Nagaland for that matter), however, take into account that a fair chunk of the territory is swallowed by the Maya Cloud and most of the south of the state is predominantly Muslim (about 30% of the overall population today and growing fast) with the momentum coming from Bengal and Bangladesh. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Nov 27 2005, 01:33 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The caste system is one of the most powerful tools in support of centralization in the world today. But ironically it does so by being one of the most powerful divisive forces in the world.
Sure, it's hard for people to even think about working against the status quo, but this is in large part because it is so hard for people to work with others who are different from themselves. As soon as the Awakening puts power into disparate hands, power is just in disparate hands, and suddenly people have to deal with that. And when goatherds can't eat with potters, that's not going to resolve itself back into a continent spanning super country. Some principalities are going to stay together obviously, but it's always going to be on a micro rather than macro scale. Some ethnicities are going to make republics, some religious minorities are going to make homelands for themselves. But it's always going to be government on a local level. The very forces that make India's giant hodge-podge stay together now are going to keep it from getting back together once it starts to fall apart. And in the 2030s, everything fell apart. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2005, 01:57 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This is where we differ. Experiencing Indian and Hindu culture first hand for any amount of time will tell you that there is no divisiveness (at least not for the man on the street). Hinduism is fatalist by nature and plutocratic by definition (I'd almost say fascist). Your cards are dealt at birth based on your previous karma and you're born to your caste that defines your place in the world for the rest of your life. What is alien to us Westerners is that most Indians are reared to accept this implictly. There is no such thing as "caste-struggle" in Hindu society (which is why the BJPs Hindu nationalism appeals across the board), and there hasn't been for centuries. Quite to the contrary, Hinduism has always been the primary uniting force in the country even in the face of immense "class struggle". Members of higher castes are believed to be "born worthy", they had to have been "very good Hindus" (as one informant told me) in the last incarnation to be born Brahmin. The system is not without freewill since you can always choose to not obey your joti - though that inevitably means that you will be reborn in a lower caste. Note this means there is no inherent good or evil in Hindu karmic cycle there is only conformity to destiny (or not). The Bhagavad Gita explains the individual's role in the world: karma is acquired by being faithful to your destiny/calling, and hence sustaining the system. The promise is that if you do, you are reincaranted in successively higher castes (going on into demi-godhood and finally Enlightenment). Hence if you rile against the system, you are sabotaging divine order and your own future prospects (in the next life). This belief makes the caste system self-perpetuating. It uses karmic retribution as a carrot and stick method to enforce conformity and it's become so deeply integrated with Indian culture and psyche as to be unconcious and inseparable. Dissenters have simply dropped out and excluded themselves from the system (ie. converting to Islam for instance) - but make no mistake, the caste system is dominant and pervasaive and there is no inherent divisiveness in the way a Hindu percieves it - the Upanishiads promise that if you fulfill your destiny by sticking to your natural vocation (joti), you earn karma and come back as a higher caste (hence why the higher castes are known as twice-born, they have to have lived at least once to rise to that caste). Disobeying your calling docks you karma and demotes you next time round). Get permission to attend a Hindu temple during one of the big feast days and you will see that the various families are seated in groups by caste and joti, fed different meals and accorded deference and respect not only by the priests but by lesser caste believers, no fuss or conflict, it is simply the way of the world. As regards SR, and as the SoA explains, the powers that be in India exploited the karmic loophole Hinduism creates for saddhus, renounciants and other holy men - ie. those touched by the gods are outside the caste system and the functional equivalent of brahmin in the eyes of Hindu society. Those born with magical gifts are automatically considered brahmin, adopted and raised by brahmin families in the Brahmin tradition. The contemporary equivalent is the "god-men" phenomenon (particularly in southern India) where even low-born individuals claiming to be incarnates/emanations of the Gods take on the vestments and practices of brahmin (note: they don't fight or buck the system, they simply claim to have jumped a few rungs on the ladder of natural karmic progression and remain within the framework of Hindu theology). Hinduism is immensely adaptable (ie. Buddha as an incarnate of Vishnu to delude the heretics, Christ as a foregn saddhu) and its preferential tactic is assimilation rather than direct conflict. Something like the Awakened would require a minimal adjustment to core beliefs. And for the record SoA does not say that India is a melting pot, super nation. In fact, it mentions different ethnic groups and religions continuing their struggle to make their voices heard in a system that's been boosted by Hindu nationalist sentiment. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2005, 05:12 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
The other thing is Bolliwood actually contributes to an organized snese of nation. it is a unifying element throughout the nation in a shared media/art form.
Modern india, for them ost part seems to revel in it's unity, even with the cultural mixes, because there is enough wiggle room. They now love to look at the 1857 mutiny against the British as the first birst of modern nationalism. It was no such thing, rather the last gasp of independent states, but it looms large in the national psyche. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2005, 09:36 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
What the hell did you fuckers do to Bhutan? Oh you bastards. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 28 2005, 11:03 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
Not enough room in the book for all countries :)
I unilateraly decided to have Tibet swallow most of the tiny nation when I did the map, and everyone agreed 8) The same happened to Lichtenstein in SoE ;) (note: there is some parts of truth in the above statement, but I'll let you find out which ones) |
|
|
|
|
Nov 28 2005, 04:01 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
And even Tibet got too less coverage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th April 2024 - 09:55 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.