MAD scanner vs Cyberscanner - Dumpshock Forums

MAD scanner vs Cyberscanner, Looking at Sensor options

BlackHat View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 01:01 AM Post #1
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180	Looking at my options for sensors, I want to compare a MAD scanner to a Cyberware Scanner. At rating 3, they both cost exactly the same. Also, a cyberware scanner can notice any non-organic weapon with one hit. A MAD scanner (usually used to detect weapons) can only detect any ferous metal weapon (also one hit). The Cyberware scanner even gets bonus dice if they happen to have lots of weapons on them. :-) Does anyone know why the MAD scanner even exists? It even has a worse range... and a higher availability. I'm not sure if I am missing something or not, but it seems to me that a cyberware scanner can do the job of a MAD scanner and then some. Could someone point out some reasons to ever had a MAD scanner?

Teulisch View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 01:29 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965	theres a few. the mad scanner detects metal. the cyberscanner detects cyberware and weapons. however, the MAD is a passive. you walk through the door and it KNOWS. the cyberscanner is a CAMERA! it can be obstucted. a cyberscanner will not see inside a lead box. the MAD will tell you if theres ferrous metal there. So i need a mad for everything passing this door here, or i can have a cyberscanner- either in a fixed position that you could avoid letting it see everything, or as a handheld that requires an ALERT competant gaurd. whats cost effective? id say have MAD on all the entrances, and cyberscanner in strategic points, and carried by a few gaurds.

Gothic Rose

Nov 28 2005, 01:33 AM

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QUOTE (Teulisch)

theres a few.
the mad scanner detects metal. the cyberscanner detects cyberware and weapons.

however, the MAD is a passive. you walk through the door and it KNOWS.

the cyberscanner is a CAMERA! it can be obstucted. a cyberscanner will not see inside a lead box. the MAD will tell you if theres ferrous metal there.

So i need a mad for everything passing this door here, or i can have a cyberscanner- either in a fixed position that you could avoid letting it see everything, or as a handheld that requires an ALERT competant gaurd.

whats cost effective? id say have MAD on all the entrances, and cyberscanner in strategic points, and carried by a few gaurds.

Also, a MAD scanner finds things on ONE hit.

A Cyberware Scanner can require up to 4 hits.

Feshy View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 01:35 AM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684	Actually, I thought the same thing when I read the descriptions. I'm not at all sure why anyone would buy a MAD scanner. What makes it even WORSE is that cyberware scanners are available up to rating 6! The only thing it would take to fix this problem, I think, is to make cyberware scanners much, much more expensive. Or at LEAST take up more than 1 capacity... Ug. Rating 6 cyberscanner in an RFID, or microscanner? At 75 yen / rating? These things are cheaper than installing thermo cameras! (Well, maybe not quite, but close)

Feshy

Nov 28 2005, 01:39 AM

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

QUOTE (Teulisch @ Nov 27 2005, 08:29 PM)

theres a few.
the mad scanner detects metal. the cyberscanner detects cyberware and weapons.

however, the MAD is a passive. you walk through the door and it KNOWS.

the cyberscanner is a CAMERA! it can be obstucted. a cyberscanner will not see inside a lead box. the MAD will tell you if theres ferrous metal there.

So i need a mad for everything passing this door here, or i can have a cyberscanner- either in a fixed position that you could avoid letting it see everything, or as a handheld that requires an ALERT competant gaurd.

whats cost effective? id say have MAD on all the entrances, and cyberscanner in strategic points, and carried by a few gaurds.

Also, a MAD scanner finds things on ONE hit.

A Cyberware Scanner can require up to 4 hits.

For everything that a MAD scanner can detect at all (in one hit) a cyberware scanner can also detect in one hit. Cyberware scanners just get to try to find even MORE things (with more dice, as it is available in higher rainings, AND gets bonus dice!)

BlackHat View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 01:59 AM Post #6
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180	Yeah, thanks for the fast feedback. :-) The active vs. passive thing makes sense, though.

Gothic Rose

Nov 28 2005, 06:07 AM

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QUOTE (Feshy)

QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Nov 27 2005, 08:33 PM)

QUOTE (Teulisch @ Nov 27 2005, 08:29 PM)

theres a few.
the mad scanner detects metal. the cyberscanner detects cyberware and weapons.

however, the MAD is a passive. you walk through the door and it KNOWS.

the cyberscanner is a CAMERA! it can be obstucted. a cyberscanner will not see inside a lead box. the MAD will tell you if theres ferrous metal there.

So i need a mad for everything passing this door here, or i can have a cyberscanner- either in a fixed position that you could avoid letting it see everything, or as a handheld that requires an ALERT competant gaurd.

whats cost effective? id say have MAD on all the entrances, and cyberscanner in strategic points, and carried by a few gaurds.

Also, a MAD scanner finds things on ONE hit.

A Cyberware Scanner can require up to 4 hits.

For everything that a MAD scanner can detect at all (in one hit) a cyberware scanner can also detect in one hit. Cyberware scanners just get to try to find even MORE things (with more dice, as it is available in higher rainings, AND gets bonus dice!)

No, not really. Firstly, the book mentions nothing about ferrous metals (just to get that out of the way) and secondly, a great deal of cyberware has metal bits in it. That means that it will show on a MAD scanner. Even DELTA grade stuff will be just as easy to detect as nondelta.

Unlike a cyberware scanner.

Rotbart van Dain...

Nov 28 2005, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

and secondly, a great deal of cyberware has metal bits in it. That means that it will show on a MAD scanner. Even DELTA grade stuff will be just as easy to detect as nondelta.

Not really. Most Ware doesn't contain nearly enough metal to have more in it than average clothing... or even much more than the rest of the natural body - bone enhancements and cyberlimbs may be an exception.

But, in most cases, a MAD will never have the chance to detect ware.

Drace

Nov 28 2005, 08:39 AM

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Nov 28 2005, 03:26 AM)

Not really. Most Ware doesn't contain nearly enough metal to have more in it than average clothing... or even much more than the rest of the natural body - bone enhancements and cyberlimbs may be an exception.

But, in most cases, a MAD will never have the chance to detect ware.

Except if you go by the fact that ware is made of metals, or the fact that cyberware makes circuits by nanites creating pathways using gold to allow the transfer of electircal currents through the body to the 'ware. But that may have changed by SR4, not sure really if they still use the gold pathways thing.

Also, go through a metal detector sometimes wearing clothing with even a little metal in it, some go off, hell I've even had one go off because of my earrings and necklace, not to mention what would happen if there was rhinestones, studs, or like many articles of clothing in shadowrun, metal in the clothing for protection, it would all go off, and every bit would be noticed, from the studs, to the weave in the jacket, to what is behind the jacket, atleast that how I think the MAD works.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 09:27 AM Post #10
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	That exactly is the point. ;) The threshold, not the real resolution matters: Too many false positives slow everything down. Sure you can set a MAD to a level where it will react to the presence of a normal body alone... but that won't help you very much in finding extremely miniaturized, superefficient semiconductors being more likely made from synthetic or even half-organic materials.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 11:49 AM Post #11
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	im guessing that a cyberware scanner is a bit like a x-ray machine and a expert system. ie, walk by, it rays you and looks for patterns it knows. was there not a movie with a similar security system? ie, everyone walked in front of a big black screen, on the screen was the skeleton of the person projected and any weapons highlighted? allso, i would expect that the only metal in cyberlimbs are some of the framework, some motors, and the wires carrying their power. most other stuff would be either fiberoptics or composits to keep the weight down and the strength up... in the end its down to interpetation. im guessing that a MAD scanner would pick up a knife blade based on the metal in it alone. a cyberware scanner may well fail if there is to much interference (what that interference is i cant tell as im not up to speed on the description on how the scanners supposed to work. mm waves anyone?)

Aku View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 12:44 PM Post #12
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769	i always thought that a cyberware scanner worked by basing it's scan on looking at flesh and bone, and then looking for any oddities that deviate from those structures, so that anything external to the flesh and bone wouldnt be noticed, (a knife blade hidden along a thigh, for instance) unless it WAS the structure (a cyberlimb)

BlackHat View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 01:11 PM Post #13
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180	That movie was "Total Recall". And yes, the book does specifically state that a MAD scanner, with one success, can detect weapons made of ferrous metal (page 225 or something). It doesn't mention being able to detect anything else with it (although, one would assume you could set it to "go off" upon sensing some set amount of metal, as people have mentioend earlier, that wouldn't be very useful). It definatly doesn't say that it can be used to detect cyberware - and if it could, it would only be the presense of cyberware, or not, which is hardly useful at all as almost everyone has cyberware. The Cyberware scanner specifcally says that it can detect cyberware, and weapons... and rather than say "weapons made of ferrous metal" as in the description of the MAD scanner, its descriptions DOES state that it can be used to detect ANY object made of non-organic tissue, if its pattern is in its database.

Gothic Rose

Nov 28 2005, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE (BlackHat)

That movie was "Total Recall".

And yes, the book does specifically state that a MAD scanner, with one success, can detect weapons made of ferrous metal (page 225 or something). It doesn't mention being able to detect anything else with it (although, one would assume you could set it to "go off" upon sensing some set amount of metal, as people have mentioend earlier, that wouldn't be very useful). It definatly doesn't say that it can be used to detect cyberware - and if it could, it would only be the presense of cyberware, or not, which is hardly useful at all as almost everyone has cyberware.

The Cyberware scanner specifcally says that it can detect cyberware, and weapons... and rather than say "weapons made of ferrous metal" as in the description of the MAD scanner, its descriptions DOES state that it can be used to detect ANY object made of non-organic tissue, if its pattern is in its database.

Page [b]255[/i] is what you meant. And you are correct, it mentions ferrous at the very bottom of the paragraph - I didn't notice that.

You are also correct that it wouldnt tell you WHERE the 'ware is.

But I think you're incorrect about it not showing up cyberware. Some, of course not - for example, plastic bone lacing. But I'd expect most bodyware (dermal sheathing, dermal plating, limbs, datajacks, etc etc) would show.

It's really more of a way to tell lax security guards "SCAN ME!" with something better.

Clyde View Member Profile	Nov 28 2005, 02:58 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	Does it say how long a scan takes? A MAD system is instantaneous - it reacts to a magnetic field which operates a circuit that sets off that little BEEP. A cyberware scanner works by millimeter wave radar - that means it can spot objects only a couple millimeters across but by that token I'd expect it to takes a bit to do a complete scan. Maybe the thing's got a narrow apeture and can only look at a part of the body at a time. Otherwise people will just be millimeter waving stuff ALL the frickin' time and that would be ridiculous. Or not . . .

BlackHat

Nov 28 2005, 03:10 PM

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

But I think you're incorrect about it not showing up cyberware. Some, of course not - for example, plastic bone lacing. But I'd expect most bodyware (dermal sheathing, dermal plating, limbs, datajacks, etc etc) would show.

Yeah. I could definatly see bone plating, and most cyberware... but, as with the cyberscanner, higher grade cyberware would use less metal, and would be harder to scan (could assume you need the same number of hits).

I also agree that its jsut asking the guards to use a better scanner - and the time thing. Say you set off the MAD scanner, so you take off your jacket and pat your cyberlimb... well, they can't very well ask you to remove that... so they'd have to bust out a hand-held cyberscanner and start doing a more complete search. Someone who passes through the MAD scanner without setting it off could just go ahead and go in.

Rotbart van Dain...

Nov 28 2005, 05:46 PM

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QUOTE (Clyde)

Does it say how long a scan takes?

As long as a recording of a video camera - just pass by.

It has a range of 15m, too.

This indeed means that any real security system incorporates a MWS - MADs are outdated.

Gothic Rose

Nov 29 2005, 03:59 AM

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QUOTE (BlackHat)

QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Nov 28 2005, 09:40 AM)

But I think you're incorrect about it not showing up cyberware. Some, of course not - for example, plastic bone lacing. But I'd expect most bodyware (dermal sheathing, dermal plating, limbs, datajacks, etc etc) would show.

Yeah. I could definatly see bone plating, and most cyberware... but, as with the cyberscanner, higher grade cyberware would use less metal, and would be harder to scan (could assume you need the same number of hits).

I also agree that its jsut asking the guards to use a better scanner - and the time thing. Say you set off the MAD scanner, so you take off your jacket and pat your cyberlimb... well, they can't very well ask you to remove that... so they'd have to bust out a hand-held cyberscanner and start doing a more complete search. Someone who passes through the MAD scanner without setting it off could just go ahead and go in.

But the thing is, MADs -will- detect, RAW, deltaware just as easily as normal ware. Cyberware scanners use the cyberware scanner table - MAD scanners do not. If the metal is there, it -will- beep, doesn't matter if it's a Delta Datajack or an obvious normal cyberleg with 2 points of armor and a lot of strength.

That is why MADs only go up to rating 1 - because you only ever need ONE success. Cyberware scanners you may need up to 4 - hence why the dice pool gets up to 6.

Feshy

Nov 29 2005, 05:58 AM

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I can't imagine there would be THAT much cyberware that uses any significant amounts of ferrous metal. Large amounts of iron in your body are dangerous, and run a risk of seeping into your blood stream. Gold (an ideal replacement for copper for electrical power wires, as it won't react with your body) isn't ferrous. For structural components, Titanium would be a far better choice than steel, as it also does not react with your body. Titanium is also non-ferrous.

Actually, the only places I could see any iron-based metal being used at all in cyberware is Spurs, Handblades, and Hand Razors, as well as the various cyber firearms. No other metal we use will hold an edge like hardened steel will, nor are most other metals appropriate for the barrel of a weapon. The only possible replacement that I know of for the blades is ceramics. In 2005, ceramics are quite brittle, by 2070, I would think they would be less so.

Thus, for the cyber blades, I'd let characters pay extra for ceramic blades, and even ceramic cyber firearms (at least the smaller ones). After all, ceramic hold-outs are already described in various SR books, and ceramic knives are available now.

QUOTE

That is why MADs only go up to rating 1 - because you only ever need ONE success. Cyberware scanners you may need up to 4 - hence why the dice pool gets up to 6.

MADs are available up to rating 3.

BTW, I wonder how hard it would be to get mm radar-absorbing paint... Won't help with your cyber, but could certainly help you get weapons through a cyberware scanner...

Gothic Rose

Nov 29 2005, 06:05 AM

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QUOTE (Feshy)

I can't imagine there would be THAT much cyberware that uses any significant amounts of ferrous metal. Large amounts of iron in your body are dangerous, and run a risk of seeping into your blood stream. Gold (an ideal replacement for copper for electrical power wires, as it won't react with your body) isn't ferrous. For structural components, Titanium would be a far better choice than steel, as it also does not react with your body. Titanium is also non-ferrous.

Actually, the only places I could see any iron-based metal being used at all in cyberware is Spurs, Handblades, and Hand Razors, as well as the various cyber firearms. No other metal we use will hold an edge like hardened steel will, nor are most other metals appropriate for the barrel of a weapon. The only possible replacement that I know of for the blades is ceramics. In 2005, ceramics are quite brittle, by 2070, I would think they would be less so.

Thus, for the cyber blades, I'd let characters pay extra for ceramic blades, and even ceramic cyber firearms (at least the smaller ones). After all, ceramic hold-outs are already described in various SR books, and ceramic knives are available now.

QUOTE

That is why MADs only go up to rating 1 - because you only ever need ONE success. Cyberware scanners you may need up to 4 - hence why the dice pool gets up to 6.

MADs are available up to rating 3.

BTW, I wonder how hard it would be to get mm radar-absorbing paint... Won't help with your cyber, but could certainly help you get weapons through a cyberware scanner...

Yes. Rating 3. That's what I meant. I was just really, really tired. :P

Half the possible rating, but only needing 1 hit vs. more.

I don't really know much about metallurgy. Honestly, I'd be more willing to just ignore the ferrous thing, since it just makes things complicated, and would be an endless source of argument among players. But that's me. I don't like complication (well, I dont mind it, to an extent).

Feshy

Nov 29 2005, 06:31 AM

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QUOTE (Gothic Rose)

QUOTE (Feshy @ Nov 29 2005, 12:58 AM)

I can't imagine there would be THAT much cyberware that uses any significant amounts of ferrous metal. Large amounts of iron in your body are dangerous, and run a risk of seeping into your blood stream. Gold (an ideal replacement for copper for electrical power wires, as it won't react with your body) isn't ferrous. For structural components, Titanium would be a far better choice than steel, as it also does not react with your body. Titanium is also non-ferrous.

Actually, the only places I could see any iron-based metal being used at all in cyberware is Spurs, Handblades, and Hand Razors, as well as the various cyber firearms. No other metal we use will hold an edge like hardened steel will, nor are most other metals appropriate for the barrel of a weapon. The only possible replacement that I know of for the blades is ceramics. In 2005, ceramics are quite brittle, by 2070, I would think they would be less so.

Thus, for the cyber blades, I'd let characters pay extra for ceramic blades, and even ceramic cyber firearms (at least the smaller ones). After all, ceramic hold-outs are already described in various SR books, and ceramic knives are available now.

QUOTE

That is why MADs only go up to rating 1 - because you only ever need ONE success. Cyberware scanners you may need up to 4 - hence why the dice pool gets up to 6.

MADs are available up to rating 3.

BTW, I wonder how hard it would be to get mm radar-absorbing paint... Won't help with your cyber, but could certainly help you get weapons through a cyberware scanner...

Yes. Rating 3. That's what I meant. I was just really, really tired. :P

Half the possible rating, but only needing 1 hit vs. more.

I don't really know much about metallurgy. Honestly, I'd be more willing to just ignore the ferrous thing, since it just makes things complicated, and would be an endless source of argument among players. But that's me. I don't like complication (well, I dont mind it, to an extent).

Actually, ignoring the ferrous part is probably a good idea. MADs in the real world can detect any conductive metal, not just magnetic ones. Magnetic metals are easier to detect, of course, but anything *should* be detectable. Otherwise, they'd be useless for detecting things like: gold, US quarters (made mostly of copper since the mid 1960's), silver... basically anything valuable. So, despite my rather long post above about ferrous metal usage, I'd agree just forgetting the ferrous part of the RAW is the best way to go.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Nov 29 2005, 10:20 AM Post #22
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	gold isnt 100% pure. of so then atleast the gold would be fully moldable by you hands, its that soft. money have only a trace element of the metal thats supposed to give it value, mostly to give it color or similar ;) silver i cant realy comment on when it comes to purity but im guessing its somewhat similar to gold... this may well be why they still trigger MAD based detectors, but to a lesser degree... mm wave based systems have the quality that they can be set to bounce back when encountering specific dencitys. therefor they can look thru walls but bounce back from the people on the other side. look thru clothes but not thru the body and so on. therefor im guessing that a cyberlimb would show up by the virtue that it would become transparent or nearly so under a mm wave scan. or atleast you would see the load carrying elements of the limb but the covering would not show up at all...

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Nov 29 2005, 11:10 AM Post #23
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	MWS should not emit anything - they use the emission of the human body, which is blocked by dense, nonliving objects.

Clyde View Member Profile	Nov 29 2005, 02:44 PM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	The body emits radio waves? I guess that solves the technomancer question . . .

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Nov 29 2005, 05:26 PM Post #25
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	pass that by me again after i have had some more of that strong stuff :smokin:

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