 When two PCs have it out for each other..., or "The joys of the vindictive flaw" |
  |
 Dec 2 2005, 09:11 AM
Post
#76
|
|
|
Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
I keep thinking to RL times someone has pulled a weapon on me and, though I try not to be vindictive, any friendship, friendliness, compassion, or empathy for that person has vanished. The two times someone held a gun on me, I went into a rage. The one time a friend pulled me away and the other time as soon as I had a chance, I went after the guy. Luckily, I never found him. Whatever caused the rage, I am sure is a flaw.
Even people I was friends with that pulled knives on me. They are never your friend again, you can never trust them again. There was a friend that probably saved my life or prevented a good ass whoopin' or hospital visit by pulling a sawed off shotgun to put an end to an arguement. Problem was, I was in the likely spread of the shotgun. I have not spoken to the guy for over 20 years since that night. Maybe in the game world where people are handling guns on a routine basis, they have more relaxed attitudes toward weapons. But add back in the vindictive flaw and I think you are back to feeling how I did when on the wrong end of the pointy object or firearm. If nothing else, you should have roleplayed how your character was deliberating between accomplishing the job (self preservation) and his vindictiveness (perceived self preservation). By roleplaying it, the new guy can get the hint that you are upset, you can get the other team members involved in holding you back (either to stop things altogether or to postpone things untill the job is done) or telling you to let it go or admonishing the guy for pulling a gun on a team mate. It will tell you if you have tacit approval to ice the guy, or give him a thrashing. It will also educate the guy about proper behavior. |
 |
 
|
|
Dec 2 2005, 09:33 AM
Post
#77
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,770 |
I'll throw my opinion into the mix. If I was RL or playing most of my characters I would instantly do 1 of 3 things.
1) Talk or use a stall tactic until Option 2 or 3 opened up... 2) Fight hand to hand until he was disarmed, dead, or... 3) Shoot the guy until he was disarmed or dead. If the individual was disarmed and restrained, other options to deal with him would arise. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 2 2005, 10:16 AM
Post
#78
|
|
|
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I read about a police training accident that happened a while ago, where everyone involved thought they had red plastic training Glocks holstered, and one cop ended up shooting his buddy to death in a joking quick-draw contest. Pointing a gun -- any gun -- directly at someone is the same as deciding out-and-out to kill them.
I blame movies and tv. Pointing a gun at someone is no big deal, to most people. It's a way to make a point, a way to get their attention, a funny hah-hah interrogation technique (Bad Boys, anyone?), a way to startle someone. When the fact is, if you've got a gun pointed at someone, you better have -- right that instant, no ifs, ands, or buts -- decided that you are okay with killing them. Because that's what can happen, and often does. It's not the same as grabbing someone by the shirt and shaking them a little. It's not the same as a slap in the face, or even the same as shoving someone against a wall to establish physical dominance. It's pointing a gun at them; a sloppy grip, a slip of a finger, a tense hand, and they're dead. Don't feel bad about that ending a frienship, Tisoz. It should. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 2 2005, 01:16 PM
Post
#79
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Never point a gun at something you are not willing to shoot.
So, either that runner is willing to shoot you - which means he may be a psycho, or a professional willing to kill a team member to accomplish the run, or both - or he is an idiot who never got gun safety training. In either case you need to deicde first if your character will still work with said person - just as said person and maybe others will have to decide if they will keep working with your character. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 2 2005, 01:38 PM
Post
#80
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Bremerton, Wa Member No.: 4,256 |
Perhaps you should deal with this in the same way Deniro's Character from Ronin handled the Newb in the movie. Make him look the fool and realize that he is outclassed, and that if he ever threatens you again he is signing his death warrent. It gives you satisfaction and teaches him a leason.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 01:00 AM
Post
#81
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Critias, I couldn't agree with you more about the tendancy for people to use a gun like an exclamation point, and that it's WAY more dangerous than people think, especially in tense situations. (Side bar: there's a reflex action that humans have to squeeze their hands into fists when startled or off balance. Think about where that leads....)
On the other hand though, when you mentioned the influence of the movies, it reminded me that for the cinemegraphic value of the game, I wouldn't be so hard on a fellow player about this. It seems to me that what we're trying to create is more like a movie scene than real life. Just an RP opinion. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 02:09 AM
Post
#82
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Well put RL points of view aside, this is a roleplaying game in which we Shoot People Right in the Face for Money. That said, I think the NRA safety course goes out the window when the water spirit starts pissing in your cheerios. :P
It's also a cooperative social activity. You should keep this in mind even when playing the "bad circumstances" that can come up. In the end, the goal is to have fun as a group. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 02:33 AM
Post
#83
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Hey, stop that your watering down my milk. :rotfl: :rollin: :rotfl: Needed that. Thanks. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 3 2005, 02:50 AM
Post
#84
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091 |
it doesnt require that you KILL him. but to "revenge" the slight. So if whatever the other person does to you is minor, your vindictiveness return should be slight (or a little more) unless this is a repeat offender. But if the slight is major then the return is major (evening killing the person). I had a character that had that flaw. One of the other players slighted me but not horribly. I did something shortly later that embarassed them in front of their single contact. No death, or dismemberment. Just egg on their face in front of their contact. Same player on a different character did a big offense to me (or at least I perceived it to be) and I killed that character. The GM saw what I was doing, and I did it in a way that did not effect the other players. And that player was warned a few times from the GM about my character's flaw, so he let me do it with no blow back.
that is the rules I live by. And those are the rules the NRA, the Boy Scouts and the US Military has taught me. If you point a gun at someone, your intent is to shoot (kill) that person. period.
for SR, this is a great plan!. Personally most of the time I would go from step 1 to step 3 but it would all depend on the situation. dx |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 3 2005, 05:59 AM
Post
#85
|
|
|
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Does anyone else hate the Vindictive Flaw?
It gives someone extra points and results in team members having to treat the PC with kid gloves. If the other team members fail to walk on eggshells around the PC, the PC is justified in being an ass and complimented for being a good roleplayer. Which usually leads to bullying because the PC is rewarded for the behavior and there is no upside for the targets of the bullying. If the targets decide not to put up with the treatment, the entire situation escalates. The only way I would allow someone to take the flaw is if another PC or a major NPC had it too. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 07:55 AM
Post
#86
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I'm fortunate in that the people i have played with that have taken the flaw (i don't remember ever taking it myself, but i might have) do not use/abuse the flaw in that way. I'm sure i'd be pissed though if i came across a player that did....up until the point that the player stopped doing it or their character died a horrible death. RL i personally actively avoid anyone that is willing to combine firearms with being even slightly drunk/stoned. So ya, tisoz, i get not wanting to be around people that point firearms in your general direction. I just can't picture myself looking to kill them because that would involve: 1) Being where they are. 2) Possibly spending a long time in prison wondering exactly why it was that important that i kill the guy. 3) Perhaps not #2 because i'm dead. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 3 2005, 08:31 AM
Post
#87
|
|
|
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
First time was someone within reach of me, and a friend standing behind me pulled me out of the place because he said he thought I was about to go after the guy and if I missed getting shot, he probably wouldn't. I wound up putting the gunman in prison and getting a judgement against him that makes him worth more to me dead than alive (over $110K) but barely. I'm sure if he dies a suspicious death, I'll need an alibi.
Second time was during a hold-up. Long story shortened, when I saw he had left the back room of the establishment, I grabbed the biggest knife around and went looking for him through the kitchen and dining room. I did not know it at the time, but he had fled, the people who had been in the kitchen and dining room had fled when he confronted me, and the entire building was surrounded by a couple dozen cops drawing a bead on the big guy stalking through the dining room with a huge knife. So I never knew who that guy was. The friend with the shotgun happened about the last week of my senior year of high school. We kind of went our seperate ways and I made no effort to keep in touch. So the two times I would have killed the guy sound like self defense to me. At that moment, it never crossed my mind. Sitting around talking about stuff, you may think you will do one thing, but when a situation arises ...? By the way, there was another guy present for the hold-up. He was so fearful he almost got us shot by the police. No, I never counted all those guns being pointed my way as actual threats. However, the other guy was still in shock and did not realize that he needed to get his hands in the air and let the cops assume control of the situation. Back on topic, maybe he should look at the other PC as I looked at the cops, they were on my side, they just did not know it yet. I tried to make the point about entertainment (roleplay, TV, movie) violence not being comparable to RL violence, but I think someone else did it better. The reason I brought up my RL feelings is for those people that want to play a more realistic than cinematic game. RL right around the time the 2 incidents happened (they occured within a year of each other) I made the comment to a college friend from Texas about it being scary to think everyone carried guns a hundred or so years ago. And that I am sure if I had been armed with a gun someone would have died. His comment was that back then everyone did carry a gun, not just the bad guys, so the bad guys were less likely to pull such crap. Food for thought. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 08:42 AM
Post
#88
|
|||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Ditto. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 3 2005, 10:59 AM
Post
#89
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Good to hear he got put away. In my layman eye for the first senario, if you would have lived and he not, that looks like selfdefense from your description. But hunting a guy down after he left the room would have likely needed a good lawyer, you not to shoot off your mouth, or a favourable jury/jurisdiction to get self-defense? Depends a lot on convincing someone that it was reasonable for you to see that as your best defense. Thus the importance of keeping your mouth shut if it was revenge and not survival on your mind. ;) Heat of the momment? Ya it might play out different when i get there, and a lot of variables would factor into it. Such as roughly what i see as, from the imperfect POV of the momment, the best choice for my goal i have in my mind (survival likely being near the top of the list). It's like when i took an extended First Aid/Emergency planning course. Until i used it in the first real senario there were those little doubts about WTF i'd do in the real crunch, and it can be a real relief when you actually go through it and keep enough of your head to not only do get yourself hurt but actually do good things. My ex's new SO is a real nuckle dragger, and one time (actually the last time ever) i dropped off my son at their place i was 15 minutes late (and had had someone phone ahead to let them know why, that a friend's kid had gotten sick and i was dropping them off first). He stepped out in front of the vehicle as i pulled up and if not for putting on the brakes hard i would have popped him right there with the 3/4 ton truck. Then he proceeds to yell and scream at me through the windown, freaking my 9-year-old out. In retrospect i should have just drove off there, but my son was already getting out the other side to go to his mom....and in the process unlocked my door too. The neatherthal kicks off his shoes and is prancing around on the pavement in his barefeet :wobble: Pulls open the door and tries to pull me out, and mostly succeeds then goes back to dancing and trying to goad me. Besides him being about 3" taller and about 40 lb heavier, this generally looks like a bad idea (fortunately the ex had enough sense to get the kid out of there straight off). I have no idea WTF chemical (synthetic or "natural") is running this guy's brain because he's not acting right. So i'm not biting and get back in...only he starts pulling me out again. So i decide i'm not getting out of there clean (driving down the street dragging him clinging on me isn't going to be clean) and turn around and pummel him but good. Ask me earlier in the day without given specifics if that's what i'd say it was very unlikely i would try, muchless succeed. Maybe i got lucky and whatever he was riding had taken him out of it at that point (through the grapevine i've heard he cleaned up whatever it was after that incident). Or maybe i just surprised the hell out of him and got back in the vehicle before he regrouped. But i can't say i'd ever make the exact same choice again, but then again how can i say i wouldn't?
That was really what was sitting in the back of my mind when i asked about the shotgun guy. How the intent you preceive played into it, and i think you summed it up well there. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 3 2005, 11:47 AM
Post
#90
|
|
|
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Like I said, I made a long story short. There were a couple other people that I worked with that were last seen in the direction I was heading with the big knife. I was wondering if the guy had taken off with them hostage when I did not find any of them. Hopefully it was clear to those outside I was looking for someone when I was knocking on padlocked closet doors and stuff like that.
I may have even told the 911 operator about the missing people. She put me through to the cops surrounding the building and somewhere along there they told me the other employees had run out the front and called them in. A sad part is that less than 10 years before this, there had been a series of robbery/murders that fit this establishments demographics. A restaurant on the edge of town, maybe $2000 in cash, a number of employees you could count on one hand. Sad to think there are sociopaths that would kill 4 or 5 people for less than $2000 but it happened a few times. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2005, 12:26 PM
Post
#91
|
|||||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Hunting a guy down after he leaves doesn't require a good lawyer it requires moving to Costa Rica before the police can find you. Not even Denny Crane or God (Who thinks he's Denny Crane) could name that self sefense. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 3 2005, 11:20 PM
Post
#92
|
|||||||
|
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
So an armed burglar comes into your home, sticks you in the closet and tells you to stay there while he leaves the room. There is a weapon in the closet and other people in the house. You grab the weapon and hunt through the house looking for the burglar and the people you knew were present. The descriptive term for how you move could be said to be stalking or hunting. I guess I am packing my bags for Costa Rica, or maybe Texas where such coddling of criminals is laughed upon. Here is an even more blatant act of not defending oneself and family from criminals for you liberal jackasses. When I was 14 I was home alone with my younger brothers, dead mother and father working nights. One night around midnight there are gunshots behind our house. I turn on the outside light and turn it back off after gunfire erupts with a couple shots sounding like they land nearby. I get a semi automatic shotgun out and load it up, taking a seat in the dark where I can cover the entrances leading to the bedroom end of the house (built on a slope so they are above ground level.) I am going to assume because I was prepared and laying an ambush for anyone breaking into our home, I was not defending myself or my family. I do not believe you need to be a victim to defend yourself. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 4 2005, 08:40 PM
Post
#93
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Got issues?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2005, 10:51 PM
Post
#94
|
|
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
No, just common sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2005, 10:52 PM
Post
#95
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
The laws on self defense differ from area to area. I am not sure exactly what they are here or where you live. I do know several people who would be willing to do or risk anything to protect their family. I can not blame them.
In the shadowrun game most runners are sinless and have no rights under the law. They live in a world where death and killing is a disliked but accepted part of life. They survive by doing what they must and not making themselves a target for someone badder, meaner, more deadly than they are. If a character acts like this around people who are supposed to have his back, then how will he react around others. Perhaps he already has enemys looking for him because of his bad behavior. Would your character help them find him? There are ways to make someone's life miserable without killing them. It is mentioned in the Hunted flaw. I say talk to the player in character or out doesn't matter. Explain that his action on the boat was not acceptable. Tell him that you wanted to leave also, but that the team was hired for a job and that was just as important. Explain to him that not finishing the job would have reduced future employment opportunities as runners live and die by their reputations. Tell him that while being shot sucks starving is worse. After you open up to each other say that you forgive him. After the two of you make up, learn all that you can about him. Learn his hope and dreams. Learn about his fears and allergies. Learn where his family lives. Keep him closer than you would a friend. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2005, 11:25 PM
Post
#96
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In every jurisdiction self-defense requires what is known as "imminent danger". If the attacker disengages then there is no imminent threat unless he engages someone else. Generally, following and reengaging an attacker after the danger has passess reverses the roles, making you the attacking and giving him the right to use lethal force in self-defense. Of course, this doesn't apply if it is reasonable to believe that there is an ongoing continuous threat. Once an attacker beings to retreat the reasonableness of such a belief is practically nil unless the attacker is using ostages to aid is escape.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2005, 12:15 AM
Post
#97
|
|||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I meant with needing to turn every post into a falsely bi-polar political tirade. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2005, 04:17 AM
Post
#98
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Echo that.
Guys, it's okay to disagree. Read my opinion, post yours, and it's all good. Example: FrostyNSO and I (I'm guessing) are probably pretty far apart on the political spectrum. However, he's got some good ideas on how to play a good SR game and I want to hear them. Likewise, he seems to read my posts with an attempt to understand, even when he posts an opposing view. Learn from that. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 22nd July 2025 - 06:59 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.