Defaulting to Logic, What are your thoughts? Options

[Inalchuk]

We're getting ready to kick off our first SR4 campaign and have been tweaking the RAW to discourage min-maxing. We've adopted the chargen house rules from Serbitar (all karma all the time) but are slow in adopting his gameplay sections (with the exception of drain for stun spells and stick-n-shock ammo).

We're currently discussing whether to limit max hits on critical* skills to "skill+1", to minimize the impact when unskilled characters default to a high attribute. For example, RAW allow anyone to use the equivalent Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, or Hacking skills at "Logic-1". My technomancer, with augmented Logic 7, has equivalent skill ratings at 6 and would only need programs or complex forms to be as effective as a trained hacker. In fact, at an augmented Logic rating of 9 (natural 6 plus cerebral booster 3), the default of 8 is as good as a trained hacker with a specialization.

What are your thoughts? Have you changed the RAW with regard to defaultable skills? Have you curtailed natural-born hackers in another fashion? Do you let it slide?

*critical skills would include all Knowledge skills and all Logic-linked skills.

[blakkie]

GM just warns that they'll enforce not allowing Defaulting for things that aren't easy, and not allowing Defaulting if you have the Skill.

If you really wanted some capping rule just cap a Default at 2 hits unless Edge.

Done. No screwing around with tracking what your Skill is. Why, because anyone that is serious about the Skill will buy it. Anyone that isn't won't, and they won't do much with it anyway.

OR

The GM says, "stop being twinks or cows will start dropping out of orbit."

EDIT: Oh, and what Frank says about VR stuff. No Logic dice in those pools, so Defaulting is not applicable there.

[FrankTrollman]

As written, most uses of Cybercombat and Hacking are no default anyway, since the dice pool is "Program + Skill", so having or not having a high Logic doesn't help you. Electronic Warfare, Hardware, and Software are all no default, so while you actually do add your logic to those, it doesn't help any.

That being said, I personally use a house rule that most hacking and cybercombat actions use a dice pool of "Logic + Skill" (programs limit net hits like a spell), and then allow people to default if that's what they want to do. A character with a crazy-high logic is still going to get pwned at least half the time by a rating 4 agent, so I don't worry about it.

-Frank

[Inalchuk]

My GM likes the cow quote. :)

Frank, can you elaborate on why the RAW prevent characters from defaulting to an attribute in place of a skill? I understand that the Program rating adds to the roll, but why wouldn't "Logic-1" be equivalent to the Skill rating?

Your house rule (like Serbitar's) would certainly solve this problem.

[blakkie]

Defaulting doesn't work like it did in previous versions of SR. You aren't actually substituting something in for the Skill dice. You are simply making the roll without the Skill dice (plus taking a -1 die penalty). (see page 54) Therefore Defaulting would not bring in Logic dice because there are no Logic dice there to start with.

[FrankTrollman]

Defaulting does not actually allow you to use the attribute at -1 instead of the skill. It lets you use your attribute at -1 without the skill.

So if the normal dice pool is Program + Skill, then you are essentially adding (zero * Logic) to the dice pool. If you don't have the skill, you'd have to default, adding zero times a smaller number - which is still zero.

If we want to get really technical, defaulting allows the character to use "only the linked attribute" with the -1 dice pool modifier. So you can make a strong case that defaulting to a hacking test would allow someone to roll a total dice pool of -1 (only your Logic dice, which you also can't use, and with a -1 penalty). Most people, however, seem to interpret that as applying only to not using the skill, and still allow people to use bonus dice from equipment.

But checks where you add only a Skill and no Attribute are scattered throughout the book. Counterspelling and Full Defense work that way for example. And even if you can "default" on those actions, your dice pool would still be zero dice. A character with no Unarmed Combat, no Gymnastics, and no Dodge actually cannot benefit from a full defense action.

-Frank

[Demon_Bob]

[FrankTrollman]

[Lilt]

I'm with frank trollman, defaulting doesn't replace the skill it allows you to make the test without it.

If anything the player defaulting to a test which usually offers Skill+Program would have a base pool of Program-1 dice, not logic+program-1 dice.

[blakkie]