 How much is a Mp?, Been looking fruitlessly for this answer |
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 Nov 30 2005, 06:31 AM
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#26
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
A packet is an arbitrary unit that is comprised primarilary of routing information. A TCP/IP packet is much different from a Token Ring packet. A packet is just a packaging unit for transmission over a network, nothing more and nothing less.
The pulse = packet theory doesn't work simply because a pulse would have to be encapsulated within a packet to be transmited over the matrix. Therefore, a pulse is much smaller than a Matrix packet. It also doesn't work because offline storage is measured in pulses. Encapsulating data offline is simply a waste of space. Comparing pulses to bits and bytes doesn't work well for two reasons. First, there are many arbitrary becisions that go into such designations. Second, there is a basic fundamental differance between SR computers and real world computers. Real world computers are electronic machines based around complex transistors. SR computers use optical processors rather than transistors. On the arbitrary side, one can start with the byte. A bit is the smallest possible unit of data; it is a single electron in one of two possible states - off or on. A Byte, on the other hand, is 8 bits representating a total of 256 possible combonations. The choice of 8 was arbitrary. It would have just as easily been 4 or 10 or 12 or 17 or 52. However, 8 became standard. Since we know of no unit smaller than the pulse we can safely assume that it is the base unit and that SR computing has forgone the concept of grouping units into sets of specific length altogether and simply uses the smallest possible unit within their system as a standalone unit. Since the smallest possible unit of light is a photon one can assume that a pules is equivilant to a single photon. The first thing to notice when examining SR computing units is that SR computers are probably not digital. While electrons only have two basic states photons act as waves. They have countless possible frequencies; modern computer moniters can display millions of colors. Depending on how sensitive the equipment was when everything was standardized, a pulse could be equivilant to a bit - representing on or off; a pulse could have tens of millions of states making them equivilant to half as many millions of bits; or anything in between. |
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Nov 30 2005, 06:49 AM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, i recall hearing some early star trek: TNG episodes talking about terabytes of storage space in the ships computer :P |
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Dec 1 2005, 05:53 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
Eh. I know a guy who has 1.2 TB in his Shuttle SFF PC. (It's about the size of a toaster.) |
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Dec 1 2005, 07:09 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
It wasn't arbitrary. You'll notice that (basically) all of the standard units of measure are powers of two. Bit = 2^0, Byte = 2^3, 2 Byte (16 bits) = 2^4, 4 bytes (32 bits) = 2^5, 1 megabyte = 2^10, etc, etc. It's not a coincidence. Design-wise, once you design a 1-bit version of something, it's trivial to design a 2^n bit version. Assume you've got a 1-bit memory. Want a 2 bit? Chain two together. Want 4 bit? Chain two 2 bits. Want 8? Chain two 4 bits. People have in the past advanced other bit-lengths as units of measure, but the industry settled on the powers of two standard (probably) because it's easier to implement and scale this way. It also just happens that 8 bits is just enough bits to connect a serial terminal (7 bits for characters + 1 parity) to a mainframe. It also happens that prior to the introduction of the S/360 (the first mainframe), byte meant any number of bits between 1-6 bits. EBCDIC, the mainframe's character set, used 8 bits. ASCII, the character set the mainframe was originally to support, requires 7 bits (allowing the 8th to be used as parity). It just happens that 8 bits is enough to do everything that the first mainframe needed to do, and do it in one instruction. Still think it's arbitrary? :) As for the original topic, the question cannot be answered. The thing you must know to answer this question is: How is the data encoded? We don't know the answer to that question, so we can't answer the the first. To give you an example, how much is one minute of video? 1. 1 megapulse. 2. ~18mb on a DVD at standard encoding length. As little as 1/6 of that at lower bit rates. 3. Several feet of VHS tape (maybe? I don't know really, but it is some arbitrary number). 4. Several hundred thousands of neurons (maybe? Again, I don't know, but it is some number). 5. 17,987,547,480 meters (if you are talking about a television broadcast) See what I mean? Without understanding how a Shadowrun computer encodes data, you can't know how much a Mp is. |
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Dec 1 2005, 09:30 AM
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#30
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Arbitrary in the sense that the use of an 8-bit byte isn't physicaly necessary, It just hapens to be the standard that was chosen. The use of binary is physicaly necessary.
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Dec 1 2005, 12:52 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, strictly speaking, the use of binary isn't physically necessary either. The binary model just happens to be a versatile and easy way to represent data. The dominance of digital computing wasn't assured at all until the transistor came along and made it cheap and easy to implement computers digitally. (Also, the math on binary computers is easier for human beings to grok than many-valued systems) Don't get me wrong, there are *very* good reasons to use digital computers (like I said, we can build them fast and cheap with the available technology). It didn't have to be that way, but the decision was hardly arbitrary; it's the same thing with 8 bits to a byte. Yeah, it *could* have been different, but there are plenty of good reasons for doing things that way. :) |
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Dec 1 2005, 01:17 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112 |
I can't believe no one picked up on the obvious.
A megapulse is- of course- a million pulses. ... *ducks* :grinbig: |
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Dec 2 2005, 03:48 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-July 03 Member No.: 4,891 |
More likely, 1024 * 1024 pulses, but yeah.
::joins Toptomcat:: |
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Dec 2 2005, 05:54 PM
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#34
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
my point, and the point of the original quote, exactly... still, 1.5TB in a shuttle? im guessing he have no optical drive in it then as those things have a very limited physical space. mostly we are talking 1x5,25" bay and 1-2x3,5" bay(s)... only other option is external dives over usb or firewire, and im not sure i would call that "in his shuttle"... |
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Dec 3 2005, 05:01 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
Where did I read it in the SR4 book that they basically said that "modern data storage systems and the easy access to the matrix have made memory limitations on even commlinks a thing of the past", or something to that effect.
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Dec 3 2005, 11:24 PM
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#36
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Right. SR$. I think this is a SR3 question. Please return to the SR4 forum, with SR$ advice.
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Dec 4 2005, 12:09 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
Right, thanks for the polite redirection. By the way, where did it say it was an SR3 question? I sorta missed that part... |
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Dec 4 2005, 12:54 AM
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#38
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
The very first post where he says he is looking through the BBB, aka SR3 or the core rule book for Shadowrun third edition. And as you correctly point out, Mp is obsolete and size of Mp is moot in SR$ so why would he need to know? |
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Dec 4 2005, 01:43 AM
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#39
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
SR$?
not a big fan of SR4 i take it? |
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Dec 4 2005, 02:31 AM
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#40
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Or not a big fan of taking their fingers off the Shift key.
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Dec 4 2005, 03:02 AM
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#41
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
well the funny thing is that "SR4 forum" is correctly typed but both times there is a refrence to SR4 alone its typed as SR$...
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Dec 4 2005, 04:51 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
<<Enable: Smartass>>
A thousand kilopulses. Ten thousand hectopulses. A hundred thousand decapulses. Ten million decipulses. A hundred million centipulses. Or a billion millipulses. Yay metric! Shall I go on? <<Close: Smartass> |
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Dec 4 2005, 06:50 AM
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#43
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If this weren't computer terminology, you'd be right, too.
Powers-of-2. ~J |
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Dec 4 2005, 07:16 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Yeah, well... I haven't looked at a computer program since '93. I've never used an MP3 player, and I don't trust the power windows in my wife's car, either. I forfeit. :dead:
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Dec 4 2005, 01:35 PM
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#45
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
they introduced some new words some years ago to avoid the confusion between metric and binary sizes.
kibi mebi gibi and so on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebibyte |
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Dec 4 2005, 03:00 PM
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#46
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, they did. Those new prefixes are an abomination, and we shall never speak of them again.
~J |
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Dec 4 2005, 03:54 PM
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#47
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
abomonations? because of the names? the reason for them being is a very sensible one...
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Dec 5 2005, 04:16 AM
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#48
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Not really. I am waiting for SR5. |
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Dec 5 2005, 01:11 PM
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#49
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
have fun, say hello to the spiders for me...
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Dec 5 2005, 05:31 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
The problem is that the industry has used 2^n as the standard for a very long time, and some people may change, but many aren't going to start saying mebibyte now. Also, the way hardware works, it just makes *sense* to base it around 2^n, which is why it was done in the first place. It makes sense to base most scientific units around base 10, because the people who work with them (human scientists) work in base 10. It also makes sense to base computer units around base 2, because the computers AND the people that work with them are working in base 2. You will NEVER get a megabyte of memory as defined in the megabyte/mebibyte standard. Nor a gigabyte of hard disk space. Files will almost never take up 1 kilobyte of space on disk -- it's almost always 1024, if it's around 1000 -- and a 4k page space will ALWAYS be 4096 bytes, and NEVER 4000 bytes. The fact is, basing binary computer units around powers of ten is worthless because they are units that will never be used. |
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