 The 4th Edition Ghoul, what's he worth? |
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 Dec 1 2005, 04:26 AM
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#2
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
In Shadowrun 4, attributes are a much bigger deal than the essentially skill-based setup of SR3. As such, layering virtually any attribute bonuses over metatype bonuses is asking for trouble. Lots of trouble. As such, it only makes sense in SR4 to price "Human Ghoul" separately from "Elf Ghoul". In fact, I would suggest simply insinuating that like Troll, Dwarf, Ork and Elf Vampires lack the "Sapience" power, that non-human ghouls simply aren't playable.
The Human Ghoul has the following attributes: B: 5/10 A: 1/6 R: 3/8 S: 4/9 C: 1/4 I: 2/7 L: 1/5 W: 3/8 Edg: 1/6 Ess: 5 M: 1/5 They get the following bonuses: Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Smell), Natural Weapon (Claws: S/2 + 1) They get the following penalties: Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh), Reduced Senses (Blind). And they are dual natured, which is technically a power, but used to be a 5 point flaw that people mostly avoided. So those bonuses to stats are quite impressive. Like an Ork, but moreso. Also with bonuses to Reaction, Intuition, and Willpower. That sounds like a killer mage, but the natural maximum of 5 in Magic makes that a lot less attractive. A point of Essence is worth about 4 other stats according to cyberware, so the attributes are only slightly positive when looked at in that fashion. The powers and disadvantages are a big net penalty. The Allergy is 10 points, the Blind is 10 points (because the character is magically active), the dietary requirement is worth another 10-15 points. The dual natured is a penalty as well. The bonus senses and claws are Adept Powers costing 1.25 Power Points - so altogether are worth about 20 BP. Verdict? The drawbacks vs. being an Ork balance on paper with the bonuses, and so should be avaiable for the price of being an Ork. Of course, Orks are under priced, so the package should be balanced against a Troll or Elf, and therefore cost about 30-40 BP. Ghoul-Orks and Ghoul-Trolls would have to cost way more than that, because the Strength and Body modifiers would start going to crazy town. But again, I see no reason in fluff why a Ghoul Troll would be a playable character. HMHVV really screws over the minds of Trolls. -Frank |
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Dec 1 2005, 05:18 AM
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#3
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Given how Wendigo have been characterized in the past, and the rest of their abilities in the SR4 critter description (such as the Conjuring and Sorcery skill groups), the lack of "Sapience" in their powers list is very likely a typographical oversight. However i do agree that upping a Ghoul's natural limits on top of whatever metahuman natural limit could be problematic. Perhaps a better option is to keep the underlying metahuman's natural limits. Becoming infected would then give them a attribute bonus that is ultimately is capped by the augmented attribute cap? |
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Dec 1 2005, 06:29 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
The attribute stacking you mentioned is not a problem I anticipated. However, I think instead of allowing ghoul characters to be human only, I think allowing a ghoul quality while simply advising GMs to keep a close eye on the character is reasonable. Maybe in some campaigns this is unplayable, but it doesn't have to be. Just like in SR3, it is an optional rule.
You've statted your ghoul based on the version printed in the SR4 as if they were a human with attributes of 3 across the board, which is not the way the ghoul was handled in SR3. Looks like a good way to handle it, but my goal is to create a ghoul "template" for any metatype, and so doesn't work for me. Perhaps in your campaign, non-human ghouls are not sapient, but according to the actual rules, they are, no matter what metatype they are. It's not a bad house rule to disallow non-human ghouls, but I'm trying to be more general here. Any decision like that would be left to individual GMs. Eyeballing it- I think that stat bonuses and powers are in line with that of an elf, but the penalties are greater than any of the other races, so I still feel it is a quality worth around 10-20 points at most. Dread Polack |
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Dec 1 2005, 06:52 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No it isn't. I make no secret of my dislike of the way Ghoulishness was handled in SR3. However, the stat modifiers are the SR4 Ghoul stats, and are referred to as such directly in the critter entry:
Really, that's the stat line. I object seriously to the SR3 rules, because that was the stat line NPC ghouls got even in 3rd edition. Honestly, if a race or option is too good for player characters to have it, don't let players have it. Don't make watered down useless versions for PCs to try to play - that just frustrates everyone.
Oh no you didn't... First of all, there are no statted metahuman ghouls. To my memory there has never been an officially statted Metahuman Ghoul. In SR4, there is only statistics for a standard human ghoul. Metatype attributes are to be applied "as apprpriate". Now, would it be appropriate to rip the Sapience power off a Troll? Certainly they lose their Sapience if they get infected with any other strain of HMHVV, so I don't see why they wouldn't. Now, you can go ahead and claim prior knowledge from 3rd edition, when Trolls could become Ghouls and then had a very small chance of keeping their Sapience. Of course, I can go back to 1st edition where becoming a Ghoul was a form of Goblinization, and therefore completely replaced your metatype. So no. By the rules a Troll Ghoul isn't Sapient. There's nothing in 4th edition to say that Trolls who become Ghouls retain Sapience, so we go by fluff. And by fluff, Trolls retaining Sapience while becoming Troll Ghouls is very unlikely. And yes, before anyone says that the rules only say to adjust attributes for Metahuman Ghouls, I just want to point out that people would be pretty offended if their Ghoul Troll didn't get Reach and a faster movement rate, and neither of those are Attributes. So an adjustment to the powers section, of which Sapience is a set member, is heavily implied in the creation of Troll Ghouls. --- If you want to let people play Ghouls, let them play Ghouls. Actual ghouls. With all the powers and weaknesses of the Ghouls that grace your games as NPCs. If you can't handle those, don't let people play them. I personally have no problem with players being Human Ghouls. Those are in line with the other Metahuman races, and can have comparable BP costs. I have a huge problem with Ork or Dwarf Ghouls, because those are crazy-go-nuts on the attribute maximums. Those would have to have a BP cost that is substantially outside the range of any currently available metatype, and couldn't be justified outside of a very high BP game. I think it is extremely disengenuous to make a "Much Weaker Ghoul Template" so that you can allow people to layer it on top of an Ork metatype. That's not playing an Ork Ghoul, that's playing a watered down Ork Ghoul. And that's much worse than just telling people honestly that you think Ork Ghouls are potentially overpowered and you don't want them in your game. -Frank |
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Dec 1 2005, 07:17 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I see you are on a serious Thickie roll today. :rotfl: So what exactly convinces you of the suggestion that Ghoul Trolls should be stripped of sapience? Because you kinda need something to point that way to overcome the default of the SR4 rules saying they do have sapience. Of course Reach is covered off by a combination of:
....and then glancing in the Metatype Attribute Table. Oh sure the lawyer weenie in you wants to scream out that it isn't modifying an attribute. But you wouldn't have anything better than that, would you? Outside of your personal dislike of the SR3 SComp ghoul rules (which allows any metahuman type as a ghoul PC, and gives a brief explaination of how to handle them). P.S.
So you didn't notice my suggestion for dealing with that? Or you have a problem with that? |
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Dec 1 2005, 08:09 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I'm sure I'm not the only one that has noticed that Frank likes to make up rules based on his opinion, and then argue them by saying the book dosen't specifically address them.
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Dec 1 2005, 08:13 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Why give ghouls a +1 to Intuition? [Edit] Nevermind. I see that's how it's listed in the new BBB. My bad. |
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Dec 1 2005, 08:16 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, but i like to toss up a signpost every so often for posters/readers new to the forum that haven't noticed yet. It's like my good deed for the week to try balance out for things like swirving to run over the kid-next-door's cat. Or the kid-next-door if he doesn't see me me coming because his wheelchair is pointed the other way, although that's really tricky to do because his parents get all bent out of shape when you leave tire marks on the lawn. :( |
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Dec 1 2005, 08:28 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I've noticed that too. I also make sure to notify people when I'm doing so. There are no rules for making Ghoul anything in SR4. The difference in game mechanical effect between getting a metatype bonus and getting 2 metatype bonuses is very large. .: Since paying the same to add Ghoul bonuses to an Ork and adding Ghoul bonuses to a Human would not be balanced, and there's nothing to say that it should work that way, it probably shouldn't work that way. Now, if you want to make rules for playable Ork Ghouls, go ahead. The total Body modifier would be +7, which is very high. It's substantially higher than anything that characters can achieve by normal means, so it isn't easily balanceable against any previously established SR4 race. I can derive the costs for an SR4 Human Ghoul as printed in the critters section - should cost about 30 BP. I can't derive the costs for an Ork Ghoul, but I suggest that 50 BP isn't even close. So you have two choices: 1> Figure out some (high) cost for Ork Ghoul and playtest that some. or 2> Disallow Ork Ghouls as PCs and move on with your lives. I know what I've done. You can, of course, do what you want. 30 BP for a human ghoul and disallowing non-human ghouls is fast, relatively balanced, and fits closer to the 2050s fluff that I literally grew up with. So it makes me happy. You may need Troll Ghoul PC rules for whatever reason, I don't. I won't stop you from making them, if that's what you're going to do, and I'll even give you some free advice to start down that road: Adding metatype bonuses together is worth more than either of the bonuses by itself, and more even than the relative advantage of both of the bonuses together. Which is to say that having the Elf bonuses and the Dwarf bonuses is worth more than 55 points (just look at what it can do for a Shaman to have an enhanced Willpower and Charisma). On the other hand, a 400 BP character can't afford to spend much more than 40 BP on its race and still have points left over to do things. A possible idea would be to have metahuman Ghouls pay something appropriately large like 80 BPs, but then have a cap on how many of your points can be spent on Race. The maximum allowed by the standard character creation rules is 10%, although I could see jacking that limit up to 15% or so. --- Troll Ghouls is uncharted territory for SR4. That kind of strength (augmented maximum of 19) can literally destory tanks with its bare hands. That's a natural weapon damage of 11P, which is literally unheard of. You'd have to be very careful about costing and allowing that, and I personally feel that it is too much effort. -Frank |
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Dec 1 2005, 08:41 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
...for a total cost of 20 pts... Just for argument's sake, let's see how that hypothetical Ghoul Troll would look: B: 9/14 A: 1/5 R: 3/8 S: 8/13 C: 1/2 I: 1/6 L: 1/4 W: 3/8 Edg: 1/5 Ess: 5 M: 1/5 ...and it would cost you 20+40 = 60 points. I guess the big issue for me might be that the negatives to attributes don't hurt you nearly as much as the positives help you. Even though this guy above has -4 to charisma, he doesn't have to spend any more than the human to get his charisma up to 1. The human, on the other hand, would likely never get enough karma to raise his body as high as the Ghoul-Troll minimum. Exaggerating these pluses and minuses just accentuates this inequity. |
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Dec 1 2005, 08:54 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Anyone besides me notice the name of the person that Blakkie quoted? |
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Dec 1 2005, 09:10 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Wow. That is sick.
Wouldn't be as bad if you had to have the attributes to cover the lost points. That would be a lot of points you would have to spend just to get to 1. |
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Dec 1 2005, 09:21 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
Thanks for the other replies, guys. I thought for a while it was only going to be me and Frank, and I was at a loss of what to say next :)
I don't want Frank to get the impression that I think his arguments are completely invalid. I was just a little confused until I realized what he was up to. The point about stacking attribute bonuses is particularly valid. If I had a player try to make a troll ghoul with maxed-out Body and Strength, I might have to put the smack down as well, but I think the solution is a warning, not a ban. I'm coming at it from a general rules point of view, leaving any sort of disallowances to the individual GMs. Also, capping att bonuses at their base racial bonuses seems a reasonable solution. Here's another idea: Giving ghouls a "Toughness" of +2 instead of a straight Body bonus. This will make them more resistant to damage, but not necessarily more resistant to other effects based on Body. Does this sound reasonable? Playing a ghoul was never meant to be as clean and simple as playing a base character race, but I think with the right group and right player, it is doable. Dread Polack |
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Dec 1 2005, 11:02 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Someone around here actually reverse engineered how the designers built the metatypes, and using his formula, I reverse engineered the Ghoul statistic block.
So yeah. Personally, I hope I'm wrong, but I ran the calculation again, and it came out the same. |
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Dec 2 2005, 12:04 AM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I missed the part where you qualified Troll Ghouls not being sapient that with "I'm just pulling that out of my butt, flat out making it up, and sure it contradicts what is in the SR4 book. But hey, i'm just going to say it's unlikely because i'm goofy that way." :rotfl:
However there are rules that give, as written, the various metahumans the Sapience power. There is also a way to addressing the problem with alteration of natural limits. |
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Dec 2 2005, 12:43 AM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, Frank is funny that way. He has some interesting and occationally insightful things to say. Then he tops off the El Camino fuel tank with nitromethane and heads offroad leaving the Sanity Reservation far, far behind. 8) Anyway, for ghoul PCs if you treat it as chronic condition with augmentation to the attributes instead changing the base it fixes up that issue. It becomes like an ongoing spell. |
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Dec 2 2005, 02:15 AM
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#18
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
You spend so much time critisizing Frank for making up rules that have no canon basis, then you turn around and say something like this. Pot, meet kettle. :S |
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Dec 2 2005, 02:29 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
As a note, he did not say that was canon. He said if you do this it works.
Frank tried to say, this is how it works, this is what it says. Whether he is right or not, I am not sure. I don't have the book. However, it is more a thing of the wooden box calling the kettle black. |
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Dec 2 2005, 03:16 AM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Noone reverse engineered the master code that makes the metahumans. There isn't a master code that makes the metahumans. There are 5 data points, and you can generate an infinite number of functions that generate the listed costs for each metahuman. Here's my favorite: Take the percentage of players who played metahumans who played each metatype. Round up to the nearest 5%. Replace "%" with "BP". And it works. It's even plausible, because the most popular (and presumably "best") races get charged more BPs and the less popular races get charged less. Do I think they actually did it that way? No. But it is just as plausible as any other setup that I've seen put forward. So don't worry. There isn't a master metahuman generation system that is automatically going to screw Ghoul PCs. Ghoul PCs may end up screwed anyway, but there's no particular reason they have to be.
Well look at it this way: Ghouls are banned as PCs by default. Any metatype of Ghoul you allow is work on your part. The Human Ghoul is very little work, because there's a template to work from in the basic book. Every other Ghoul metatype is more work. Especially because you have various choices to make about how a modified racial score layers on another modified racial score. Consider the Ghoul Elf. What does its Charisma line look like? You could make an argument for any of the following: 1/4 3/4 1/6 3/6 1/8 3/8 It isn't just +2 -2 like 3rd edition. There's not even a modifier. Every metatype simply has a starting and maximum value. How do you "add" those? It sounds obvious, but it's not.
I did? When did I do that? I presented a house ruled Human Ghoul derived from the Ghoul in the basic book. Then I said that there wasn't anything to base any other ghoul on and that I personally didn't think it was worth the effort. And then I pointed out that there was ample fluff to support non-human Ghouls being non-sapient, so simply not converting them as playable was entirely workable within canon fluff. There is not yet any canon PC Ghoul generation system. There won't be until at least Running Wild. And I didn't say anything other than that. Stop treating me as if I was some sort of authority on things, I'm not. I'm just an asshole with an opinion. If you don't like mine, have fun with that. -Frank |
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Dec 2 2005, 04:17 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
Frank, you own. To be frank.
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Dec 2 2005, 03:40 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I rather like Eyeless' technique in another thread to preface certain passages with tags like "Rules:" and "Supposition:". Kinda like...
RAW: "Elves get +2 to Charisma." Guesswork: "Because elves are more socially appealing, they must naturally smell pretty. Maybe it's all of the dandelions they eat." Suggestion: "Charisma should be used more as force of personality than comeliness. Darth Vader had a charismatic presence but he was freaky lookin', and some joytoys might be nothing but uninteresting lumps of high-maintenence flesh. Hey, maybe we can split Charisma into Psyche and Appeal." So, my sympathies to Frank for offering guesswork and suggestions and having people view them as misreported RAW. |
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Dec 2 2005, 04:21 PM
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#23
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Yeah, but I'm only doing that because some very vocal people seem to have a hard time differentiating between restating canon rules and making suggestions. I really don't think it should be necessary. Is it really that hard to tell the difference between providing canon references for a rule, suppositions about that rule, and suggestions for improvements beyond the scope of the rules? I don't generally consider myself to be particularly bright for being able to tell the difference, but maybe I'm smarter than I give myself credit for.
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Dec 2 2005, 04:26 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I posted my tidbit mostly because of the statement made by Frank: "Oh no you didn't" Which to me meant: "How dare you question the mighty rules-lawyer Frank!"
I am not incapable of understanding when people turn to suggestion and houserule. Frank does this sometimes, but most of the time he bursts in with just over the top rules, telling you that you are in fact interpreting the rules incorrectly. I felt a need to comment on this. |
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Dec 2 2005, 04:32 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
In (probably) everyone's defense, the holes in SR basically force us to make inductive and deductive interpretations. That is to say, there's a lot of necessary guesswork going on mixed in with canonical facts (which themselves can be contradictory). That's why I liked the idea of trying to label which was which when possible.
But yeah, my head shakes and eyes roll when someone defends (or attacks) guesswork and suggestions with religious fervor. No argument from me there. |
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Dec 2 2005, 04:49 PM
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#26
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
So, actually, yes, you did say that. By the most recent rules given that would allow you to make a Troll Ghoul it is very likely that they cease to be sapient. Only a super genius troll can do it, and even then they will become much less intelligent and even uglier. It is still within the realms of possibility however. The bolded part is where you stepped over the line. The rest is true, but that one part in bold is where you say this is the rules and this is how it is. |
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