do as I say, not as you think..., leadership and PCs Options

[ShadowDragon8685]

When people start talking smoothly, I start getting more stubborn. :)

[SL James]

[Glyph]

@Critias:
That's the problem, though. You do "think" that your character would never do certain things, and a roll of the dice simply isn't very convincing. After all, nearly everyone can think of several things that they can't see themselves bending on, so surely their Shadowrun character should also have a few hard limits.

Beyond the issue of being reduced to an NPC, which I have explained several times, there is also the issue of plausibility. If the GM tells you that your character does something, and there is no way that you can reconcile that with your character's personality or background, then what do you have left? Just empty stats. Bitter, apathetic, or metagaming behavior is a normal response at that point.

[SL James]

yeah. but it's still metagaming.

[ShadowDragon8685]

And just pumping the TNs up to compensate dosen't cut it. Again, take the theory of a young (meta)human male who is very hetrosexual, and was abused by a male authority figure as a child. And now a male ganger wants to bugger him in exchange for doing what the group wants. The group sends in their face - ok, let's calculate his TN's.

With respect to the character, the (NPC) is:
Friendly. -2 TN.
Player's desired reslt is:
Judgement call here. Technically, this isen't going to hurt him, and it will cause him no losses of property. This can go any way - a truely stupid DM will say it's advantagous to him, as it allows him to complete the run. An inteligent DM would tell the face to ram his dice up his ass. Let's assume we're using a book-thumping literal DM, who rules that it is of no value to him. TN +0.
That's it. The determined Target Number is the human male's INT score -2.This means that it is very likely that the Face is facing a TN of 4, at most. Even if the DM is inteligent and adds +2, that's a TN of INT. Even at +4 or +6, that's still within range, especially if our hypothetical male human is not very inteligent.

And all of a sudden, allowing himself to be buggered by a disgusting individual seems like a good idea to this man who was sexually abused by a male authority figure as a child, and as it not in any way attracted to men. This is a really, really stupid thing, as it is effectively mind control.

[Shrike30]

.... given character history, I have a phenomenally hard time seeing how any decent GM would say the "desired result" here was anything BUT harmful/disastrous to the PC... +4 or +6 there. And frankly, I'd be suspicious of my group's face the minute he proposed that reenacting an act of abuse was a good idea... book lists that as being a +2. Frankly, I might get downright hostile about it... that's another +4 (since hey, he's being a totally screwball manipulative bastard, trying to convince me this is a good idea, but I'm not going to call him an enemy, which would be a +6).

That's a +12 there, on top of his INT. Not exactly an easy test.

[Critias]

Some of us are talking about using Leadership to give commands in a fight, or Negotiations to talk the street sammy into paying for dinner or seduce someone who might find you attractive anyway, or Intimidation to stare down another 'Runner to convince him to go along with your plan or share the loot like he should.

Some others of us are talking about smiling, shaking hands, and talking someone into letting themselves get butt-raped.

No wonder the conversation's taking 8 pages to not change any minds.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Where does it stop from making someone outlay his nuyen for what you want done, or participating in unwelcome sexual situations? And you can't just tell the GM that "okay, I'm treating him as Hostile" to get bonusi on his tests, when you've been his friend for awhile.

[Critias]

Jesus Christ. Do you have a Doctorate in missing the point, or is it just natural talent that you've honed to a razor's edge without the benefit of a formal education?

[mmu1]

[hyzmarca]

I'd say that there are limits to what social skills can do in a given time frame.

Dressing down a subordinate into compliance within a combat turn isn't unreasonable.

The seducing decker who's saving her virginity for marriage would require a much greater investment in time, at least a month unless the face is exceptional. In SR4 such a courtship would require an extended test. The mechanics in SR3 are a little less forgiving to the face, who has wasted a month of effort in the event he fails the test. Such a total failure would represent the virginal decker kicking the face in the testicles and putting him on her enemies list after finding out what a jerk he really is.

[ShadowDragon8685]

[The Stainless St...]

[ShadowDragon8685]

With the right incentive you can, but words alone? Not often gonna happen, and certainly not if it's anything 'big', like sticking your neck into the line of fire, consenting to buttsechs, routinely paying for someone else's damn dinners, etcetera. You might make someone concede a point, but are any of those 'concessions' real, or are they just tired of arguing? *eyebrow lift.*

[Gerald Fitzgeral...]

Damn, I wish I would have been in on this thread earlier! This is one hoppin' party! There were some VERY nice quotes in this thread- very funny. "A doctorate in missing the point," Critias that made me LOL.

As a neutral, outside party, let me throw in my 2 :nuyen: and see if it comes close to bringing this to a resolution.

After eight strongly-opininated pages and reading each post...

A moment of reason

The main underlying problem people seem to have with one player convincing another player to perform an action is the removed element of roleplaying as the target character takes orders dictated from the leader.

In the OP's scenario, ordering someone to join in a fire fight is not essentially taking control of the character. The character can no longer run away, cower, etc. but they now have to participate in the firefight. How they do that is up to them. There is still a roleplaying element there, however some of the escape routes have been forbidden.

Now, in the more extreme example of "go and kill your whole family and get all your money and bring it to me" or "I'm gay, you're not, let me buttfuck you pleasekthx"- it is OVERWHELMINGLY obvious that BOTH end of the argument are right and I will tell you why:

Side one says that "I'm not gay, I know what I would never do, I would never get buttfucked no matter what their charisma score" and side two says "if someone this smooth talking in real life actually tried it, you'd do it."

The problem here is everyone is considering this battle of wits to be an IMMEDIATE test with IMMEDIATE results. However, much like killing ones entire family, nothing this severe is going to be a wham-bam-five minute chit chat and you're now a mindless zombie.

Instead, think of the process as psychological warfare. The leader (as demented as they must be) would have to convince the target to kill his family by coaxing him into it over the course of a month or two.

He would start off with dropping hints; I dunno. "How much insurance do you have on your family?" "You know, you never really got into acting because your family was holding you back." "That girl over there was checking you out. Damn shame you're married."

Hiring a prostitute to "seduce" the man when he's drunk. Infuse him with guilt. Cause a few financial problems at home to start a few fights with him and his wife. THEN, and only then, after the ground work has been laid, would the leader be able to finally convince his drunk, depressed target "hey, why don't you do them a favor and just put them all out of their misery. You bring your money back here and I'll make sure you get back on your financial feet."

Now, in scenario two, the gay man (I guess.) I can't see it being possible that a gay man could walk right up to a straight man and, with charms alone, convince the straight man to take it up the haunches from a dude he doesn't even know.

Again, this would be a long process after months and months of prep work. Hanging out. Going out to get drinks. Uh... I dunno what gay men and straight men do when gay men are trying to seduce the straight men, but do you get my point?

The problem here, and I'mm say it again for my summary, is that we're all assuming these life-impacting negotiations are occuring BAM right that very second and they're NOT.

Perhaps this will bridge everyone closer together in an agreement.

[hyzmarca]

[eidolon]

[hyzmarca]

I expect this thread to beat the Drop Bear's post count long before a resolution is complete but I must add something that I forgot earlier.

For a good example of a powerful, godlike face who can and does talk someone into murdering his own family, I suggest reading or watching some version of Othello. My main man Iago is the ultimate face who is able to uses social skills with no small talent.

From the very begining, he manipulates those around him to serve his ends. Not only does Iago apply his Leadership to talk Roderigo out of suicide, he also takes total control of Roderigo's considerable assets using his false promises and feinged benevolance.

Consider how he goads Brabanzio into becoming Othello's enemy and entices him to make an ass of himself by demanding that the Doge arrest his new son in law.

While it takes some time and a single prop, Iago is able to convince Othello to murder his wife whom he loves by playing on his sense of justice and making him believe an untruth. I would say, it is the fact that Othello loved Desdamona that ensured her demise. Had Othello not felt so strongly he could have simply made the evidence that Iago fabricated public and let her guilt be determined by trial. Had she been found guilty she would have been exectued anyway, so there is no reason for him to take the law into is own hands so drasticly except to spare her the humiliation of a public trial and execution. While he could have simply divorced her and let her go on her merry way to do so would offend his sense of justice and possibly allow her to victimize another man as he believed that she had victimized him.

But I rant. To conclude, read Othello it is great. Iago is the perfect face, except he should have killed his wife a little earlier and in private.

[SL James]

[Glyph]

[TheHappyAnarchis...]

I think that is a good example Glyph. Except I use it slightly differently. If he rolls high we have to figure out how he got you to do it. That was a good example and you know your character well enough to think it is possible.

I would love to have you in a game.

Whereas, ShadowDragon would say I am a tightfisted dwarf, no way I could ever be convinced to ever pay for the stupid face's dinner, etc etc. You rollplayed and roleplayed, enhanced your characters concept by describing a seemingly out of place act, and were generally a pleasure. Shadowdragon turned his character into a piece of cardboard, a particluarly inflexible and uninteresting piece of cardboard.

Faces can convince you to do things you don't want to do. That is why conmen exist. Do I want to give this person 50$ of my money? No, but they made it plausible that I wanted to because they are that good.

If the face needs you to get butfucked to get past this ganger, then he is not convincing you that you like buggery. He is not saying you are gay. He is not saying that you will enjoy it. He is hitting on the fact that the team needs it, and if you don't do it, then you are letting the team down. Or if you are a spendthrift he is pointing out that if you do not do it, you may lose out on the money for the run.

For some people it is remarkably easy to get someone to do what you want them to. Really remarkably easy. And if you want to play someone that is not easily conned then you need to improve those attributes and abilities that will keep you from being easily conned.

If you don't, then you will get conned. If you think you shouldn't, you are a munchkin by definition, trying to get the equivalent of certain stats for nothing.

Oh yeah, and with a good face, if he starts talking smoother and you get more stubborn, then he will see that cue and start being more gruff. Everyone can be manipulated. You seem to think you are immune. I call BS.

[Syd]

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think you all have a hole in your head. I'm sorry, but your dice are not enough to convince me that taking one up the ass from a big fat troll is a good idea. I don't fucking CARE if I'm letting the team down, that's not gonna fucking happen. And if you want me to pay for your dinner, you'd better come up with a reason for it. IE: I'll pay you back. That would get me to buy you dinner. "I'm outta cash. Spot me some now an' I'll pay you back when we get the nuyen from this run?"

Of course, if you doublecross me, then you can eat an Alpo dinner next time for all I give a fuck. And the only people who fall for conmen are the greedy and stupid. Nongreedy stupid people have enough instinct to know that this person dosen't have their best interests in mind, and greedy smart people know better than to let go of their cash until they have something in their hand.

[Critias]

Battle on, Xena. You're too crafty for those wiley con-men, or that friend that borrows money just a little more often than he pays it back, or the family member that promises to pay "next time" a little more often than they should, or some hot chick who's not really into you for no reason than your rugged good looks.

No, sir. None of those are a match for the flinty, sharp, eyes and steel-trap mind of ShadowDragon. Where other men falter, he stands firm. A pillar of willpower and cunning, that's our boy.

Congrats, you inhumanly cool person, you. The weaknesses and frailties of other men do not apply to all mankind -- and I can only pray your seed is spread far and wide, that some of your greatness and fortitude might be passed on to future generations.

All hail! All hail! All hail!

[mmu1]