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> Killing a Dragon, Let's drudge up this old gem...
Gerald Fitzgeral...
post Dec 3 2005, 02:14 AM
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If you could arrange for, say, 10-15 mages with the "Decrease Strength -3" spell to ambush a dragon and hit it at once, I'm guessing it would be possible to plummet the dragons strength to such low points that it could not support it's own weight.

If each of the mages had spirits or elementals to maintain the spells, the dragons strength would remain low and allowed the mages to move onto their next spells.

"Decrease Body -3"

This would make the dragons body so low that a few AR rounds and some grenades would blast a hole in the side of the lizard big enough to drive a truck through.

Another idea I just had:

The thing about dragons is simply their invincibility to everything. What if one was infected with the HMHVV? Sure that would open a pandora's box of god forsaken problems, but it would open up avenues for weakness. Vulnerability to sunlight and silver, IIRC.

However, I don't think it would ever be a good idea to INTENTIONALLY make a vampire dragon.
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stevebugge
post Dec 3 2005, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE (Gerald Fitzgerald)
However, I don't think it would ever be a good idea to INTENTIONALLY make a vampire dragon.

I am so going to use this for a run someday

Why not if ARES can make Bug Critter guard animals, why not make vampiric dragons while they are at it?
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toturi
post Dec 3 2005, 02:23 AM
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Dude, if you want to kill a dragon, just be a high level adept and do a Background 10 virtuso. Not a garanteed kill but at least it is much simpler than 10-15 mages with Decrease Strength 3.
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Demon_Bob
post Dec 3 2005, 02:30 AM
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Plan A
It still has to eat and breath. Although stopping it from doing either might be a bit of a problem.
Plan B
Get something just as tough pissed off at it enough to wish it dead.
Plan C
Cause it to become so depressed it decides to commite suicide.
Plan D
Live as far away from dragons as possible.
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nick012000
post Dec 3 2005, 02:34 AM
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Even simpler: 1 Street Sam with an assault rifle w/ 10 points of recoil comp, a Smartlink, and APDS ammo.

TN 2 to hit, and any decent Street Sam will have 6 points in Assault Fifles (if he's using them in the first place), and at least 6 Combat pool. So, the sammie scores 10 successes w/ his assault rifle.

The dragon will get 11-12 dice in its combat pool, dodging against TN 7. That's about 2 successes. Net successes: 8 to the Street Sam.

The dragon now soaks vs. 14D (8M base, +10 Power +2 Stagings from autofire, -4 power from armor). It gets no successes, and gets rendered unconscious, possible with 4 overdamage boxes if the game's using that rule. The street sam fires a few more 10 round autofire bursts into the dragon just to make sure the thing's dead (all the overdamage boxes filled in)
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hyzmarca
post Dec 3 2005, 02:39 AM
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I'm pretty sure that increase/decrease attribute spells don't stack. If they did you could reasonably have magicians running round pretending to be the Incredible Hulk.

Against adult dragons it is wasteful. A 20 round burst of Ex-Ex from a HVAR gets the job don't much faster. Against a Great Dragon it is suicidal. A GD will alomst certainly have the shielding metamagic and the equiviliant of a double-digit initiate grade. Fighting one with magic is like fighting a tank by spitting at it.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Dec 3 2005, 02:41 AM
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Attacking Dragons is a job best left to things with an N in their damage code.

Attacking Great Dragons is a job best left to Thor Shots and nukes.
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Demon_Bob
post Dec 3 2005, 02:45 AM
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Why would it try to dodge and add its combat pool to soak.
Remember to reduce the 14D by its massive natural armor.

The real question is how do you get the street sami and his assult rifle to the dragon to shoot it?
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ShadowDragon8685
post Dec 3 2005, 02:46 AM
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I'm pretty sure Psych IC or magical possession is involved.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 3 2005, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
Plan A
It still has to eat and breath.  Although stopping it from doing either might be a bit of a problem.
Oxygenate, nutrition, fast.
QUOTE
Plan B
Get something just as tough pissed off at it enough to wish it dead.
Usually, another dragon.
QUOTE
Plan C
Cause it to become so depressed it decides to commite suicide.
This might actually work.
QUOTE
Plan D
Live as far away from dragons as possible.

Hello Zurich.
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Demon_Bob
post Dec 3 2005, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
Plan A
It still has to eat and breath.  Although stopping it from doing either might be a bit of a problem.
Oxygenate, nutrition, fast.[QUOTE]

Actually was thinking about something like:
Becoming and aid to the evil dragon in question.
Luring it up to a space station on buisness.
Hoping that I'm not too old to be useful by this time.
Sabotage the station so the room the dragon is in is exposed to space.
Let it cast all the spells it wants.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 3 2005, 03:25 AM
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Dragons are dual natured, so it will be in more danger from the mana warp than the void of space.
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caramel frappucc...
post Dec 3 2005, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE
Plan C
Cause it to become so depressed it decides to commite suicide.
This might actually work.

Are you being sarcastic?
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Ferratus
post Dec 3 2005, 03:34 AM
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Well, on that point of making the Dragon depressed, why not get him on a mail listing for Nigerian Investments?

Another way is via the Nodwick way.....

Nodwick- a great comic
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caramel frappucc...
post Dec 3 2005, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (Ferratus)
Well, on that point of making the Dragon depressed, why not get him on a mail listing for Nigerian Investments?

Because he'll blow up Nigeria as a countermaneuver.
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nick012000
post Dec 3 2005, 03:42 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I'm pretty sure that increase/decrease attribute spells don't stack.  If they did you could reasonably have magicians running round pretending to be the Incredible Hulk.

Against adult dragons it is wasteful. A 20 round burst of Ex-Ex from a HVAR gets the job don't much faster.   Against a Great Dragon it is suicidal. A GD will alomst certainly have the shielding metamagic and the equiviliant of a double-digit initiate grade. Fighting one with magic is like fighting a tank by spitting at it.

Actually, you'll want to load that HVAR with APDS, not EX-EX, because Ares HVARs only have a power of 6, so even with the +2 from EX-EX, you still won't be able to penetrate its Hardened Armor of 8.

QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
Why would it try to dodge and add its combat pool to soak.
Remember to reduce the 14D by its massive natural armor.

The 14D includes the reduction to the power of the attack due to its armor. It would try to dodge because TN 7 is easier to meet than TN 14.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Attacking Dragons is a job best left to things with an N in their damage code.

Attacking Great Dragons is a job best left to Thor Shots and nukes.


Actually, a lone street samurai packing a customized assault rifle loaded with APDS can quite easily kill both. The Great Dragon gets a few more successes on the Dodge test, but they both die horribly.
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Ferratus
post Dec 3 2005, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (caramel frappuccino)
QUOTE (Ferratus)
Well, on that point of making the Dragon depressed, why not get him on a mail listing for Nigerian Investments?

Because he'll blow up Nigeria as a countermaneuver.

So there is no drawback, then? One torqued off dragon, no more "Hello Sir, I am a deposed IE Overlord of Nigeria......blah blah"
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 3 2005, 05:44 AM
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you could always be cheap and just cast decrease [mental attribute] on it until it goes into a coma, then pee on it's head. :)
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hyzmarca
post Dec 3 2005, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
you could always be cheap and just cast decrease [mental attribute] on it until it goes into a coma, then pee on it's head. :)

Or you could go classic and goad it into swallowing you and your monosword whole and then cut your way out.
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Critias
post Dec 3 2005, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (nick012000 @ Dec 2 2005, 09:34 PM)
Even simpler: 1 Street Sam with an assault rifle w/ 10 points of recoil comp, a Smartlink, and APDS ammo.

TN 2 to hit, and any decent Street Sam will have 6 points in Assault Fifles (if he's using them in the first place), and at least 6 Combat pool. So, the sammie scores 10 successes w/ his assault rifle.

The dragon will get 11-12 dice in its combat pool, dodging against TN 7. That's about 2 successes. Net successes: 8 to the Street Sam.

The dragon now soaks vs. 14D (8M base, +10 Power +2 Stagings from autofire, -4 power from armor). It gets no successes, and gets rendered unconscious, possible with 4 overdamage boxes if the game's using that rule. The street sam fires a few more 10 round autofire bursts into the dragon just to make sure the thing's dead (all the overdamage boxes filled in)

Which is all well and good, but is assuming (1) the dragon and the street sammie some how end up in a toe-to-toe shoot 'em up, instead of magic, allies, underlings, followers, or other resources alerting the dragon to his presence ahead of time, (2) the dragon hasn't got some serious armor spell action, or body-boosting, or combat sense (danger sense? I always forget the spell's name), or anything else Quickened, locked in a foci, etc, to throw the numbers off, and (3) the dragon doesn't just go karmakarmakarmakarmakarmakarma to get a hojillion successes on every roll, ever.

In other words, you're working off the assumption the dragon is a big dumb lizard with impressive physical stats, and nothing more. Which is all well and good, in some games -- but kind of misses the point, in the default setting. Which isn't me calling you "wrong" or anything, because I once ran something similiar (though it was a very young dragon, living in the wild). But that's hardly the "normal" dragon in SR.
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 3 2005, 06:03 AM
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[Edit]
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 3 2005, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 3 2005, 12:55 AM)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Dec 3 2005, 12:44 AM)
you could always be cheap and just cast decrease [mental attribute] on it until it goes into a coma, then pee on it's head.  :)

Or you could go classic and goad it into swallowing you and your monosword whole and then cut your way out.

yes, but there is always the chance that this dragon had dutiful parents that made sure that it always chewed 10 times before swallowing.

Besides, then you don't get to pee on it's head. :)

QUOTE (Critias)
In other words, you're working off the assumption the dragon is a big dumb lizard with impressive physical stats, and nothing more. Which is all well and good, in some games -- but kind of misses the point, in the default setting. Which isn't me calling you "wrong" or anything, because I once ran something similiar (though it was a very young dragon, living in the wild). But that's hardly the "normal" dragon in SR.


Sing it ta the mountain my brotha'! Amen!
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nick012000
post Dec 3 2005, 06:09 AM
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I'll point out the by the stats in the BBB, the standard dragon might possess magical skills, and its Karma pool is equal to double the PCs. Sure, it might spend lots of Karma to repeatedly reroll its Dodge test. Each time will net it a few more successes, and given that this is a street sam straight out of CharGen, it'll only have 2 rerolls. It'll be better off burning them on the Hand of God ("Yeah, your assault rifle burst tears it apart, and it crashes through the window of the skyscraper to your left. No, you can't see its body.")
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hyzmarca
post Dec 3 2005, 06:25 AM
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Geyswain, an example of a weak and stupid adult dragon (albeit one from an earlier edition) had a force 8 armor spell among other things. So you would need something bigger than an AR if he was able to cast the spell. He also had minions and death traps.

However, he was also stupid enough to meet the runners face to face.
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Slump
post Dec 3 2005, 07:19 AM
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Can you get Ex-Ex for a panther cannon?

Just wondering....
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