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Akilina
post Dec 7 2005, 09:52 PM
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I like Shadowrun but this new edition doesnt do anything for me.
The new rules are way too full of holes and create too many arguments, which is not what gaming is about. To me gaming is about having fun with group of friends and this edition doesn't do that.

Enjoy the 5th edition that must surley be on the way.
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SpasticTeapot
post Dec 7 2005, 09:54 PM
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I think that this edition is designed to be played "fast and loose". GM sets target, player rolls appropriate dice. You have to make stuff up as you go, but at least vehicle combat does'nt take all day.
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Spider
post Dec 7 2005, 10:05 PM
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I don't entirely disagree with you(from all that i've read so far).

But can you give some example of "hole" in the rule and the SR4 system?

Then again, can you state some argument you had with your players (i intend to run SR4 and i wanna see what's comming up my way).

I just wonder where the drek hit the fan in SR4... I guess it come from SR3 convert to SR4 player. We decided to treat SR4 as a complete new system. It's the same setting, but with a different power level and also a different game mechanic.

But i'm not shure my players will enjoy it. From now on were just all happy to be able to play riggers and deckers without monopolize an entire session of play...

-Spider
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Shrike30
post Dec 7 2005, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE (Akilina)
The new rules are way too full of holes and create too many arguments, which is not what gaming is about.

Cruise through the SR3 main book, and look at the number of holes left in the rules there. SR3's got a number of supplements written to "fill" holes in the rules that there simply wasn't room for in the main book, and SR4's not really any different.
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Cheops
post Dec 7 2005, 10:35 PM
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Plus SR3 was around for the better part of a decade whereas SR4 has only been around for about 3 months.

I was one of the major detractors about SR4 when it was announced but I have been converted. I find that SR4 is much better than SR3. Starting characters can actually succeed at runs and you have way more flexibility in character design. The rules, despite their lack of clarification or explanation at this point, are much more streamlined and easier to handle both as a GM and a player.

I'd suggest that maybe you are playing with the wrong group if all they do is bicker over rules or that maybe it isn't the right game for that particular group. Give it a try with different players and see how it works. If you have a lot of rules lawyers you should probably stick to d20 where it's so structured that a computer could run the game.
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Valentinew
post Dec 8 2005, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (Cheops)
Plus SR3 was around for the better part of a decade whereas SR4 has only been around for about 3 months.


So many people were able to get so comfortable with SR3 that I completely understand the resistance to SR4. It will take some getting used to, certainly.


Personally, SR3 was so involved, that my group played it rarely, if ever. When we did, the GM restricted the people who were allowed to play mages & no one ever played a rigger or a decker, 'cause it took too long to run them in-game. We just made sure somebody had a decent decker contact & a decent rigger contact.

Everyone in my group was pleased with what we found in SR4. The rules were streamlined (or dumbed down, if you prefer), and playing a decker/techno/rigger no longer will take over a game. In fact, as I (& my GM) become more practised at what to roll & when, we foresee a time when resolving matrix stuff will be as easy as resolving magic stuff.

I, too, would like to know which holes you're having issue with/arguments about. Is it a matter of "this was covered in SR3" or something else?
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Spoonfunk
post Dec 8 2005, 12:50 AM
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Personnaly I found that if you start the campaign off with a "look this is a new system and we are all learning it so no arguments save them until after game" disclaimer then you reallly wont have aggro in the game. Most people will save it for after the game if you just mearly tell them when all those issue's may be brought up. Be foreward, direct, and respectfull and just tell them to shut thier trap for a couple of hours until everyone can sit down and discuss a resolution.

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Apathy
post Dec 8 2005, 04:20 AM
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I don't think he was actually looking for constructive feedback, he just wanted to voice his frustration one more time before he went away...
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Makar
post Dec 8 2005, 05:16 AM
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Personally, I really like the way that the matrix and man/machine interaction is handled in SR4. SR3 was getting a bit behind the times; it had a cool feel to it, but the 'future' tech was rather outdated and felt a bit forced.

Jump ahead to SR4 and suddenly the setting feels 'high tech' again. So if you take the book as a new setting, its a success.

The rules... well...

They are more streamlined, yes. Learning the core system is easier for new players, and certain actions (rigging and decking) are now integrated so that they don't feel like a game-within-a-game.

But, I've found the new rules really lacking on examples of how to apply them, and downright sparse in how they address several situations. I can only assume that supplements will fill in the holes.
Also, I really have to say that the book is piss-poor organized (not that any SR product would really score well on that regard). There are little blurbs and rules stuck in the oddest places and only someone who reads the book cover-to-cover will be able to apply them correctly. The obtuse layout of the skill section is a perfect example. You can't simply look through the listings of skills in alphabetical order. You have to know what stat they derive from, then find the section dealing with that stat, then find them alphabetically.

Despite this, I really do prefer the SR4 version.
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eidolon
post Dec 8 2005, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (Makar)
Jump ahead to SR4 and suddenly the setting feels 'high tech' again. So if you take the book as a new setting, its a success.


Or, you could have just been updating the tech here and there yourself and not have anything to worry about.
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warrior_allanon
post Dec 8 2005, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE (Spoonfunk)
Personnaly I found that if you start the campaign off with a "look this is a new system and we are all learning it so no arguments save them until after game" disclaimer then you reallly wont have aggro in the game. Most people will save it for after the game if you just mearly tell them when all those issue's may be brought up. Be foreward, direct, and respectfull and just tell them to shut thier trap for a couple of hours until everyone can sit down and discuss a resolution.

not to sound like a smartmouth spoon, but what group of saints are you playing with? i mean seriously whose group here saves arguments till after the game......mine doesnt they want clarification right then and there, thankfully we have four people with hardcopy and everyone else has PDF

QUOTE
I find that SR4 is much better than SR3. Starting characters can actually succeed at runs and you have way more flexibility in character design


thats why you use trial and error to figure out exactly what you want to play and how your gonna play it. you cant just throw up your hands the first time a character dies, you learn from it figure out what you did wrong and take care of the problem either when your character gets out of the hospital or you make your next character sheet.

For instance, i spent a good 2-3 years working on a character concept design till i had it just right for me and my style of gameplay. My GM didnt mind so much, he knew i was working on an archtype to send in to the company as an example.....you know what, the concept was used when they came out with SR4. not my character creation, but the idea was the same.....you know that gunslinger adept.

now i'm not the only one who wanted to make a gunsliger adept/weapons specialist adept, but i've been playing my character for almost 3 years of gaming and he has almost 350 karma in him. he is the only one to last this long.
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Turjon Apocritus
post Dec 8 2005, 01:32 PM
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I have loved SR for a long time but got taken away for a 5 year DnD campaign. When i told the fellas a new SR was coming out and i would run a campaing they were really excited because we really like the lore and background that comes within SR. Some were skeptical as they remember how slow the old shadowrun ran because there was rule and 10 counter rules to everything you wanted to do in the setting. Know they love it and i like it as well being the GM the flow is smooth and i can easily make a determination of something based of the guidelines giving in the book. The supplements will be cool but i hope it is just additional information that doesn't counter the main book.
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Azralon
post Dec 8 2005, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops)
I'd suggest that maybe you are playing with the wrong group if all they do is bicker over rules or that maybe it isn't the right game for that particular group. Give it a try with different players and see how it works.

"Don't hate the game, hate the players." 8)
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Phantom Runner
post Dec 8 2005, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Makar)
The rules... well...

They are more streamlined, yes....But, I've found the new rules really lacking on examples of how to apply them, and downright sparse in how they address several situations....Also, I really have to say that the book is piss-poor organized...There are little blurbs and rules stuck in the oddest places and only someone who reads the book cover-to-cover will be able to apply them correctly.  The obtuse layout of the skill section is a perfect example.  You can't simply look through the listings of skills in alphabetical order.  You have to know what stat they derive from, then find the section dealing with that stat, then find them alphabetically.

Despite this, I really do prefer the SR4 version.

This is exactly what I have been saying since the first day I got the book.
The new rules are pretty good, some aspects I absolutely love; other aspects I can easily change. But the book is in my view basically a rough draft.
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Feshy
post Dec 8 2005, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Phantom Runner)
QUOTE (Makar)
The rules... well...

They are more streamlined, yes....But, I've found the new rules really lacking on examples of how to apply them, and downright sparse in how they address several situations....Also, I really have to say that the book is piss-poor organized...There are little blurbs and rules stuck in the oddest places and only someone who reads the book cover-to-cover will be able to apply them correctly.  The obtuse layout of the skill section is a perfect example.  You can't simply look through the listings of skills in alphabetical order.  You have to know what stat they derive from, then find the section dealing with that stat, then find them alphabetically.

Despite this, I really do prefer the SR4 version.

This is exactly what I have been saying since the first day I got the book.
The new rules are pretty good, some aspects I absolutely love; other aspects I can easily change. But the book is in my view basically a rough draft.

Yep, that's my take too. I really love the new rule system (despite thinking I'd hate it when I first heard it) but the book itself needs work, in exactly the areas you list. Well, perhaps not the skills; I can figure out which category a skill is under pretty easily *most* times. But the lack of examples, and crazy "organization" of rules is very frustrating (though the difficulty in finding the rules holds for all past editions of SR as well.)
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