IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Cryogenics, "Cold Sleep" in Shadowrun
Omer Joel
post Dec 8 2005, 07:43 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 278
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Rehovot, Israel
Member No.: 265



Is there any Canon reference to the use of cryogenic hybernation, i.e. "Hypersleep" or "Cold Sleep"? Or is it a field yet to be developed?

I was thinking about an Ares project to develop cryosleep, which would make their space projects much cheaper - just think of the reduction in life support costs - done in several Antarctic bases in 2070. The location was chosen for four main reasons:
1) Far away from nosy and/or annoying governments.
2) A good natural defence against rival corps.
3) Close to their AresSpace arcology in McMurdo (IIRC).
4) If for some reason a corpse of a failed subject is recovered by outside groups (they cremate them or feed them to paracritters, but accidents happen), most of the signs of the failure would be easy to conceal (with appropriate bribes and/or blackmail of medical personnel) as accidental hypothermia.

The subject used are typically squatters abducted from third-world sprawls, preferrably with little or no datatrail.

Also, what would be the symptoms (sp?) of a failed attempt to induce "cold sleep" into someone? I recall that the main IRL issues preventing the development of cryogenic hybernation are both ice crystal formation (they rupture tissues and tear the subject from inside) and "reviving" the subject (which should be theoretically solveable as there are animals which drop their metabolism to a very low level when they hybernate, so there is supposed to be a way to keep the subject barely alive).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Dec 8 2005, 07:47 PM
Post #2


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



I know that there's references to keeping people alive in tanks (although I can't remember, off the top of my head, which corporate magnate is currently a ball of mutating tissue in a glass jar with a datajack)... I've never seen references to actual cryosleep, though. What with the tech for Leonization and germ therapy floating around, extending people's lifespan seems a little more feasible than trying to modify people with the frog DNA that lets their cells freeze without getting damage, or however you want to do it.

This isn't to say that there's not people TRYING to do it, and you've got a great reason for Ares to be trying it. I just don't know of any canon references to it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lindt
post Dec 8 2005, 07:51 PM
Post #3


Man In The Machine
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,264
Joined: 26-February 02
From: I-495 S
Member No.: 1,105



The only problem is a 'failed' subject would almost always be either dead or rendered dead soon after. Either via brain death (from depravation of O2) or massive frost bite and insuing tissue death.

But thats only my 2
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PlatonicPimp
post Dec 8 2005, 07:56 PM
Post #4


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,219
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lofwyr's stomach.
Member No.: 1,320



The name of the fellow you are refering to is Thomas Roxburough, high muckety muck in Universal Omnitech.

And yeah, As far as I know, there are no canon references to cryogenics, but hey, why not? Sounds like an excellent adventure to me. .

Also, consider weather or not a person in cryosleep would be totaly unconcioous, or if they still had brain activity while under the ice. Could they be hooked up to the matrix while frozen, and still be useful? Could a frozen Rigger still pilot the ship? Could a Frozen mage still Astrally Project?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Dec 8 2005, 07:57 PM
Post #5


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (Lindt)
The only problem is a 'failed' subject would almost always be either dead or rendered dead soon after. Either via brain death (from depravation of O2) or massive frost bite and insuing tissue death.

That's what nanites/incinerators/hypercomposting GMO bacteria were made for. :P
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lindt
post Dec 8 2005, 07:59 PM
Post #6


Man In The Machine
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,264
Joined: 26-February 02
From: I-495 S
Member No.: 1,105



No, but that leads to interesting possibilities with using specilized nanites to prevent the massive tissue damage during de-frost.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Dec 8 2005, 08:03 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Also, consider weather or not a person in cryosleep would be totaly unconcioous, or if they still had brain activity while under the ice. Could they be hooked up to the matrix while frozen, and still be useful? Could a frozen Rigger still pilot the ship? Could a Frozen mage still Astrally Project?

You could make an arguement (based on total pseudoscience, of course) for the hackers/riggers to have their brains kept functional, with an amazing amount of delay. Fast enough to pilot a space ship, of course, but not necessarily to communicate easily with. And then, they can go craaazy :ork

Would a frozen mage might count as having a "depressed" essense rating for purposes of how long he can stay out of his body?

Would it be more efficient to "borg" the people going into space (beta or delta grade cyberware, do the full body replacement stunt with all 4 limbs, torso, skull, eyes, ears, and some organ work) and just keep them alive forever that way? Or maybe, to freeze the crew, but have the pilot be someone who's basically a brain in a jar anyway (like Roxburough, except he was an astronaut or something... or maybe even a volunteer for the job with a clone body waiting back home), so his life support requirements are low?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Omer Joel
post Dec 8 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 278
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Rehovot, Israel
Member No.: 265



QUOTE (Lindt)
The only problem is a 'failed' subject would almost always be either dead or rendered dead soon after. Either via brain death (from depravation of O2) or massive frost bite and insuing tissue death.

But thats only my 2

That is why I talked about cremation and/or flesh-eating bacteria and/or paracritters and/or nanites :evil:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ed_209a
post Dec 8 2005, 11:55 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 944
Joined: 19-February 03
Member No.: 4,128



I would say the only way to tell an hypothermia victim from a failed cryogenics subject would be what is actually in their veins.

As I understand it, cryosubjects have their blood plasma replaced with something that reduces the damage from the freezing process.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TheHappyAnarchis...
post Dec 9 2005, 12:07 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 203
Joined: 18-November 05
Member No.: 7,978



From what I understand, the brain often deteriorates as fast as everything else. And I am not sure that putting it in a jar full of preservatives is an option.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Dec 9 2005, 05:45 PM
Post #11


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



The theory would be that it's still active and doing stuff, just minus a body. So, rather than having the life support requirements be reduced by the guy being in cryo, the pilot could just be a brain in a jar (with his cloned body waiting back home, if they're nice), since that takes less supplies to sustain.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Clyde
post Dec 11 2005, 09:13 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 12-April 04
From: Lacey, Washington
Member No.: 6,237



Instead of totally freezing you could always lower body temp to very NEAR freezing. Also, check out the Hibernate spell for a magical version.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Dec 11 2005, 09:44 PM
Post #13


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (Lindt)
No, but that leads to interesting possibilities with using specilized nanites to prevent the massive tissue damage during de-frost.

Frag freezing, dehydration is the way to go. With freezing, ice crystals will form in the cells. Water expands when it solidifies, effectivly destroying ecells from the inside out. It is a bad case of freezer burn and there will be enough brain tissue damage to impair functionality even if you can use nanites to repair the rest.

Dehydration, on the other hand, would leave most structures intact. You could probably deyhdrate and then freeze for double the preservative goodness. The problem then it to reintroduce water in a safe way. Nanites could accomplish both the dehyration and the rehydration.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Birdy
post Dec 12 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 637
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,528



QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Lindt @ Dec 8 2005, 02:59 PM)
No, but that leads to interesting possibilities with using specilized nanites to prevent the massive tissue damage during de-frost.

Frag freezing, dehydration is the way to go. With freezing, ice crystals will form in the cells. Water expands when it solidifies, effectivly destroying ecells from the inside out. It is a bad case of freezer burn and there will be enough brain tissue damage to impair functionality even if you can use nanites to repair the rest.

Dehydration, on the other hand, would leave most structures intact. You could probably deyhdrate and then freeze for double the preservative goodness. The problem then it to reintroduce water in a safe way. Nanites could accomplish both the dehyration and the rehydration.

Two reasons against this:

a) You have to skip the "scantily clad attractive male/female leaving cryo" scenes a la "Aliens"

b) I have this picture of a cupboard full of boxes labeled "Freeze dried Shadowrunner. Just add water" in my mind
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
brohopcp
post Dec 12 2005, 01:28 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 184
Joined: 22-September 05
Member No.: 7,770



Pull the Trick they tried in the old Batman movie. Dehydrate a person into a pile of powder. Just make sure to use soft water and don't let the dust mix with other people's dust.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cray74
post Dec 12 2005, 02:12 PM
Post #16


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,428
Joined: 9-June 02
Member No.: 2,860



QUOTE (Omer Joel)
Or is it a field yet to be developed?

It seems to be undeveloped in SR.

QUOTE
I was thinking about an Ares project to develop cryosleep, which would make their space projects much cheaper - just think of the reduction in life support costs -


Life support's not a big deal if launch costs are low (<$1000/pound, as they seem to be in SR) and you have fairly high efficiency rockets (starting at about 5x the fuel efficiency of chemical rockets) for the deep space vessels in question.

Since Ares and other megacorps have lunar facilities, getting oxygen for deep space vessels is a no-brainer. The moon has plenty of oxygen and is easy to launch from. Since people only use about 2kg of oxygen per day without recycling (just scrubbing CO2 and water from the air), you can get years of oxygen per person for just a few tons.

Further, SR has mentioned fusion rocketry several times. While I doubt those fusion rockets are anywhere near the magical fusion rockets of Battletech, they do mean SR has highly fuel efficient spacecraft that could probably make visits to Mars in a few months, AND that the spacecraft have plenty of power needed for high-energy life support recycling options.

Alternately, the high fuel efficiency of those fusion rockets means the deep space vessels can just lug along tons and tons of life support consumables and not bother with recycling (except of water), which would probably keep the life support costs down more than trying to freeze the astronauts. Life support's not expensive if you're just using 1970's-type air scrubbing, temperature control, and water recycling technology as updated to the 2060s.

QUOTE
You could make an arguement (based on total pseudoscience, of course) for the hackers/riggers to have their brains kept functional, with an amazing amount of delay.


Yes, pseudoscience. Brain activity depends on chemical signals moving in a liquid environment. If you freeze the brain, you can't send signals between neurons because the neurotransmitters are frozen in place.

If you just really chill the brain to near freezing, you still have a similar problem - some proteins used by human cells begin freezing at about 70F. Neurotransmitters might still move (they do in cold water fish), but the cells themselves will be shutting down.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 8th June 2023 - 05:09 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.