[MAGIC]: Increased Reflexes and force, Why take I.R. +1/2/3 at higher then 1? Options

[JeroenduChatinie...]

Hey there people,

I have a question about the Increased Reflexes +1/2/3 spell. I have tried to search for it and I've browsed the archives a bit, but I couldn't find anything. So, here goes!

Why would anyone buy Increased Reflexes at higher then 1 force? There are no restrictions for a low force (as in increased attribute). Am I missing something vital about spellcasting here?

I hope you can help me out.

-Jod

[CanvasBack]

I think that at a lower force, an enemy mage would have a very easy time dispelling it. Can't think of anything else though... 8)

[Lort Gob]

*imagines a mage with only force 1 spells*

*POOF*

[Herald of Verjig...]

As Canvas said, low force is easy to break. A weak ward, opponent spell slinger, or any other opposition that can theoretically disrupt a spell will disrupt a spell at force 1.

[The White Dwarf]

Theres at least 2 other threads on this, its like the question of the month or something. Higher force makes it harder to dispell, easier to get the spell through a ward, harder to destory in astral combat if its on a focus, and maybe a few other things I cant think of. So yes theres a reason to be higher than force 1, how big of an issue is up to you in your games.

[Siege]

To be fair, if a hostile wiz has time to disrupt your reflex spell, the gun bunnies aren't doing something right.

-Siege

[BitBasher]

if your team can take out their mage before he can take out your reflex spell, then his muscle is also not doing something right.

[Siege]

True.

Would a hostile mage waste time blowing a reflex spell and not something a bit more terminal to the mage in question?

Idle curiousity since I don't play mages.

-Siege

[FlakJacket]

[JeroenduChatinie...]

Thank you all very kindly for your swift replies! Seems like I haven't gone bonkers. :)

The dispelling part never cropped up much yet, but I think I will give it another good look.

Sorry to have regurgitated an old topic..

[Sphynx]

As I say on all these threads.... :P

You need at LEAST a Force 3 to survive the common Force 5 Ward. Anything lower and you won't even make it into most secure buildings with the spell.

I took Force 6 because of the Quickening rules. I have +3D6 Quickened for 12 Karma. Nobody short of a Dragon is dispelling it.

Sphynx

[JeroenduChatinie...]

Sphynx, could you tell me where I can find more info on Wards? Is it in the main book? It'd be appreciated.

[Sphynx]

Best reading is Magic in the Shadows, page 83 under Pressing through a Barrier, and then page 176 of the main book under Astral Objects to find out how much Karma your Foci has for pressing through the barrier.

Sphynx

[Morphling The Pr...]

Well, there is a funny converse to that, in regards to illusion spells. For the sake of seeing through the illusion, having a force 2 spell with 10 successes means they aren't gonna see ya (who has the Int necesseary to have the chance to get the 10 succs?). Though you'll be easy prey for the mage, everyone else is hosed. Besides, the mage would see the 4 5's as easily as the 10 2's.

[Synner]

That's pretty good casting you got there Morphling, since the Target for most Illusion spells is Willpower (plus LOS modifiers), Intelligence (plus LOS modifiers) or 4 (if Indirect Illusions). How many dice did you roll to get those ten successes?

[Polaris]

Guys,

As it is written, there really isn't any good reason to take any Increased Reflexes spell other than +3 and there is likewise no good reason to buy it above force 1.

It is true that a force 1 spell is dead easy to dispell. OTOH, who cares? You marry that with a force 1 sustaining focus, and you can turn this spell and focus off whenever you don't need it. Also the drain code at force 1 is light enough (2D IIRC) that any mage with any reasonable will should not feel any problem with recasting this spell in combat.

I also remind everyone that spells and foci can only be targeted when they are active and in this case that is only going to be in combat most likely.

Given that, you as an enemy mage have a choice:

You can attempte to dispell that focus....doing nothing else this pass.....or you can attempt to simply kill the mage. That is not a hard choice....which is why in all my experience I have seen dispelling all of twice in about 40+ combats.

The fact is that this spell/focus combination is a moderately serious (and well known) balance problem and IMX is one of the more commonly houseruled things in SR.

-Polaris

Edit: Don't forget that a mage with even one grade of initiation and masking can completely hide that force 1 focus and spell which means it can not generally be targeted anyway.

[BitBasher]

[John Campbell]

[Fu-Man Chu]

Does this spell work in the Astral? Ie. if a mage with Increased Reflexes sustained via a sustaining focus projects - and then at some time gets involved in Astral combat, do he get the Init bonus for the spell? I would think yes, but I have heard that it does not.

[Glyph]

No. The spell affects the meat body (check the definition of Health spells), and so has no effect on astral initiative (although it does make an astrally perceiving mage faster).

One exception, though. A mage who begins a turn in his physical body, then projects (a complex action), uses his physical initiative for the remainder of the turn.

[Cain]

Dispelling isn't a big issue, but low-force foci are big targets for Spirits. An opposing mage could order an elemental or spirit to take you out, starting with your foci, as one service.

[Polaris]

Guys,

1. Dispelling as Cain correctly noted is not really an issue so it should not be considered as a balance argument.

2. There is nothing about health spells that restricts them to the physical plane only. Thus a strict reading of the spell would imply that it would apply in astral form too.

3. Spirits can not target what they can not see. Even a grade 1 initiate can completely hide the focus.

4. 65,000 nuyen for +3d6 Initiative is in fact chump change even if you assume the limitations are more serious then they in fact are. Compare with wired reflexes, move-by-wire, or other reflex enhancing bioware or cyberware and you will see that I am right. Even better this focus is always legal (no permit is even required in fact) which is something no equivalent bio or cyber modification can say which means you can buy it off the street for cost.

5. Whenever you people say that leaving on sustaining foci all the time is a disadvantage, it is everything I can do not to roll on the floor laughing at you guys. The fact is that sustaining foci are not really disadvantageous. Either they are weak enough that you can turn them on and off again with very little problem *OR* they are strong enough that they will plough through astral barriers with ease. The situation gets worse with quickened spells. In fact sustaining lots of spells through foci at low karma levels and graduating to quickened at high is the most effective way to min-max a mage.

6. How often will you really be in a situation where you have to go into a fire-fight right within a combat round after going through a ward? Really, how often?

I have never seen it happen. There is usually some lead time, so the time it takes to recast (a single complex action) is irrelevant.

7. I don't care what the dumpshockers say and I never have (as most of you well know). I know that in my experience every GM I have seen has houseruled increased reflexes just as soon as they saw how I could abuse it.....every time. I would submit that if you haven't seen the same, then your magic using players are simply not up on their min-maxing tricks. It is really that simple.

Thus in short, all the reasons given here don't amount to a proverbial hill of beans. If you are a smart and canny mage, you will buy Increased Reflexes +3 at force one along with the associated force 1 sustaining focus. For what you get, it is dirt cheap and there is no reason not to do it. [I remind you that spells and foci are dual natured by the way which is yet one more reason this would persist in astral space. I also remind you that you can order a spirit to attack a person or target a focus. To do both would require two services.....and that is assuming the spirit could even see it.....and the defending mage can always defend that focus....read the rules on astral combat if you doubt.]

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Polaris is right in that the +3D6 does confer to Astral Form. He's also right in that the spell needs House Ruling to work like Increased Attributes with the Force/Successes limitation.

But Pol, you're not right on a couple of other issues. First, as Bit said, you can't assume every initiate knows Masking. Hell, I even saw a character roll all 1's for learning Masking meaning he'll never ever be able to learn it.

I don't care about balance issues, so the costs/etc are mute points.

Leaving a sustaining focus on all the time isn't a disadvantage, I agree, but it's just not possible to do in games like ours where Force 5 Wards are commonplace (no need to go into the arguement about how likely that'd be, in a world where the GM doesn't want Sustaining Foci everywhere, they are common :P)

Admittedly, dispelling pre-ward and recasting after a ward is a good strategy IF you can take the drain. with a TN 5 (the average Mage reaction it seems) and a Drain of 2D, you need to allocate at LEAST 10 dice to drain (unless you have a Trauma Dampener) and 5 dice to casting. With 12 and 8 being a bit closer to an 'assured' casting/resisting. Not a risk I'd recommend for a non-minmaxxed mage, but a good strategy if you have the 20 dice for the 2 tests.

Sphynx

[The White Dwarf]

Still not seeing the point of this. Yes people like to go fast, but having more actions as a mage isnt always useful. Your spell pool and sorcery dont refresh as fast as you go, often youll wind up shooting for some actions with your gimped mage gun skill. Trying to win initiative to act first is likewise not always a good idea, using reaction in a surprise test is a better idea and this spell doesnt boost that.

I will concede that, should you desire to have the initiative, this spell is a good bargin (in whatever combo you use, focus, sustained, quickened, etc). It offers a fairly large increase for the investment to get it. However so does a smartlink, or the blindness spell. Not everything is equal, and really it cant be. Assualt Rifles are always better than Pistols at shooting... the whole concealability issue depends on your group's style much like Sphynx and wards/magic.

So yes, there is a reason (a few actaully) to take the spell above force 1. No, most of the time its not worth doing as a general concensus. But yes, there are times when force 1 will screw you. How often depends on your style of play and take on the game world. A hidden enemy mage dispelling this on his surprise turn (or ordering a spirit to take down the focus) could seriously swing the encounter, for instance, but isnt something that will likley occur often.

Again, youve seen the issues on both sides, make a call on what works for you.

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

1. Balance is the issue here so I felt and feel that cost, legality, ect are very valid and cogent points.

2. The target number of 5 is not hard. Even without spell pool, a socerer with 7 dice (which is normal for a starting sorcerer) will get at least two successes without the use of pool dice.

In addition to that, even if you don't have your will boosted with sustained increased will foci (and I almost always do....and at force 6, I will blast through force 5 wards with the greatest of ease), a good solid starting mage is almost assured of having a starting will of 7 (and you can get up to 9 with no trouble at all strictly speaking....10 if you allow gnomes). That means that you are looking at a spell pool of at least 6 and more likely 7 or 8.

That means you can toss 13 dice (7 from will, and 6 more from pool) to absorb 2D of Drain. That is as close to a sure thing as almost anyting in the game.

Finally, I think it is a safe bet that the first or second (at worst) metamagic technique an initiate will pick up will be masking. The technique is too darned useful. That is especially true if he is using a force one increased reflexes focus. Thus I feel my assumption about masking being the first thing any initiate picks up is quite reasonable really.

-Polaris