[X] My Assistant

[Sphynx]

Just realize that you're talking about the +2 version of the spell, not the +3 version (unless you take the time to create a 'caster only' version of the spell, or your GM allows that at char-gen). +3 version would have a drain of 4D for a Force 1 spell (though some people's interpretation would have it at 3D). Need a good 16 dice to resist that drain (or 12 dice if you interprete it as 3D) and that's only for a 50% chance.

As for masking, nah. in my experience only 2 of well over 15 initiates I can think of having existed in games I've played in, had Masking. I don't question how useful it is, but I do question how common you think it is.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

In shadowrun, you always round down so 1/2 would be zero plus three becomes a drain of 3D for the "+3" version of the spell.

Thus I do stand corrected at least in part, but you should as well. OK, so look at it....you get to toss at least 13 dice with a target number of 3. You are still virtually certain of getting no drain which makes this a good bet. If you have a min-maxed mage, you are looking at tossing about 20 dice at target number three which is as close to a sure thing for no drain as the game allows.

-Polaris

Edit: As for masking, all I can suggest is that your mages didn't know their business then. Masking in my experience is common as dirt for PCs. This would be especially true if they had a force one increases reflexes foci up so I stand by what I said. If you have such a foci, masking should be the first (or second at worst) metamagic technique you learn.

[Sphynx]

Like I said, dependant on your interpretation. ;) And although I personally agree with you, in most games I've played in, that's a +4D because people feel even a round-down has a minimum of 1. :P

I am curious though how a min-maxxed mage (out of char-gen) has 20 dice to resist drain. Can't count Exp-Foci since we're talking about something to drop/recast regularly, and not likely to put THAT much into other foci since it's been the assumption it's a non-aspected earth who'd put the Foci into Manip spells. Nor Elementals really, for the same reason.

I think a min-maxxed converts it to 3D w/ Trauma Dampener to only require 6 successes and rolls 6+(8?) Willpower and Spell Pool of 6ish for 14ish dice. Even with a 10 WP (that's poor min-maxxing IMHO) that's barely 16 dice. Personally I stick to 6 Willpower and 5 Spell Pool with a Trauma Dampener as my min-maxxed and roll 11 dice TN 3 needing 6 successes, a sure thing still (but not assured if it's 4D needing 6 successes).

Sphynx

[Edit]Masking first?!? Hell, Shielding is the most common first in our groups. The 2nd is pretty random it seems, that's the more likely spot to see Masking, but only by people like you and me who rules-lawyer the books. Hell, I see more Quickening than Masking since the average player thinks Masking is just to hide who you are, and don't think it's about stealthing through Wards.

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

20 dice? Easy. Here's how going strictly min-max.

You have an albino Dwarf with the edge "bonus attribute point: willpower" and you put six base points into willpower. [This is all fairly standard actually]

That gives you a "natural" willpower of 9 right off the top.

You then have a force six increase willpower spell and sustain that with a force six sustaining focus. This (especially if you use an ally to temporarily decrease you will while doing this) can be used to magically boost your willpower by six more to 15.

You happen to be a Crab Shaman which gives you one more dice for all resistance checks (including drain). That's one more.

You now have an Int of 6, Magic of 6, and Willpower of 15 for a Spell Pool total of 9.

15 (Will)+1(totem)+9 (pool) gives you a grand total of 25 dice.

This isn't even trying very hard. I can easily add one or two more dice to this.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Show me the start character who can get 6 successes, TN 9 (natural WP) otherwise you can subtract 5 right there as you get that whopping 1 success.

Reduce that Combat pool acordingly for a 7 and end up with 17 by hardly trying.

I dont' consider 'albino' nor 'gnome' nor 'bonus attribute point' to be standard. :P Our Run-Fu must be weak. ;)

Anyhows, 20 isn't at all probable at char-gen, sorry.

Sphynx

[The White Dwarf]

To be fair you cant use the extreme of something to say its broken or common. Yea thats possible but you can only have so many albino-dwarf crab shamans in a game with a will boost.

A more fair situation would be a Int 6, Willpower 8 dwarf with a force 2 focus and a skill of 6 in sorcery. This gives you 14 dice to split with a will of 8 for drain. Its not hard to start off at grade one which bumps the value to 15 dice from the magic increase. However its also easy to use a self-only version of the spell with a 2D drain code, which allows you to cover it easily enough (if you take spell design anyhow).

All that aside, I still fail to see how adding an average of 10 to your initiative is oh so unbalancing. So what if its easy to do, whuppee one more action per turn. With no dice refreshing. For the investment it takes to get its certainly a fair trade, and while perhaps "better" than some things theres things Id pass this for without looking back. Trying to prove that its easy to cast is kinda pointless, cause like it is. Im more interested in seeing how having its a problem, cause its not.

[sir fwank]

[Cain]

As Polaris correctly points out, having a high-force Increse Reflexes spell is useful is you don't care at all about sublety, and just intend to plow through any ward you encounter, triggering alerts left and right. The same applies to any high-force sustaining focus. If they're a problem in your game, start enforcing the Focus Addiction rules and add Imps. (Remember, since anything over a force-2 foci is technically illegal, more powerful Imps will need to seek out more powerful foci in the open, which usually means shadowrunners. The more powerful the focus, the more likely it is that an Imp will seek it out.)

If you intend to be sneakier about things, the lower-force version is better, since the drain is much easier to deal with and can be cast "on the fly" much more readily. You do have to worry more about most spirits, though.

[John Campbell]

[BitBasher]

Well that and his "I can mask a force one focus" when the example of how he cast that forse one focus involves already having a force 6 focus saustaining increased willpower. Kind fo defeats the point.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Cut the crap will you? I was asked specifically how I could get 20 dice to resist drain on the Increased Reflexes +3 spell. I showed how.

As for drain, it is always force of the spell divided by two round down. That is why a force 5 spell has a base drain power of 2. Thus a force 0 spell has a base drain power of zero.

In addition, using the extremes is always a valid way to show if something is or is not balanced. Indeed that is the preferred way, or am I the only one that has ever heard the maxim, "You understand a system best when it is most unstable"?

In addition to that, I use Shadow Run companion rules (the point buy system), and that is a standard and canonical way to generate character. My Dwarf Shaman was prefectly legal going by those rules....and yes albinism and the bonus attribute edge are both standard features in this game. If you don't like it complain to FanPro, not to me.

As for the rancor, some of this is a side effect of a much earlier debate where I showed that the strongest mage is one that had lots of sustaining foci (and you can do this without running into focus addiction) on pretty much all the time....but that was not the issue here.

In this case, the sustained force one increased reflexes is legal without the need for permits (and all magic is legal with the right permits which is much nicer than most weapons or cyber). Remember that this got started with the idea that I can turn it on and off again without any problem.

1. I can indeed with spell design get a caster only version. That lowers the drain code back down to 2D which even an average mage can do easily.

2. A Human mage with a will of 7 can easily boost that will to a 10 with a focus. When you factor in an additional 6 dice from spell pool, you have 16 dice to drain 2D or 3D and both are virtually certain things. This is not "min-maxed" at all.

3. Sphynx, I am sorry to say that your run-fu is weak. Here is how you get a character with a Will of 9 to get +6 (especially with an expendible focus) on Willpower.

A. You have your level 2 contact/shaman cast Decrease Will on you at force 6 (or have the other mage/shaman do it if one is in the party). This will reduce your willpower to 3.

B. You now cast (no other foci active yet) Increase Willpower using the expendible foci. You may have to blow a karma pool (unlikely but worth it if you must). This will get you 6 (from the skill)+5 (from the pool)+6(from the focus) or 17 dice at target number three. You are likely to get the needed 12 successes and you certainly will with karma.

C. Have your friend/ally stop sustaining the decrease Willpower spell.

Voila, you are done and your new will is now 15.

4. As for masking, I think all of you are missing the point, so I will say it once more. You can not target what you can not see. Even a grade one initiate can hide that force one increase reflexes focus all the time with no action or concentration on his part. That means that the foci can not be targeted.

It is that simple.

-Polaris

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Sphynx]

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

Actually any game that uses the rules as written has to allow my decrease/increase combo. It is legal by the book. I challenge anyone here to deny it.

Secondly, you can always hire someone to cast that decrease attribute spell if you want. In addition to that, if you have more than one mage/shaman in the party (which I have found to be the usual case), then you can boost each other.

Thus, I find that a force 1 sustaining focus for increase reflexes +3 is not only very doable, but a very attractive deal. Thus your run-fu is no where near as mighty as you think it is.


Break what focus? You have to see it first, and if I just broke through a ward, then the focus will not be active (which is the point isn't it?) Secondly according to MIPS page 78, you must assense the enemy mage in order to see through the masking. That is at least a simple action. No spell casting for you. Furthermore, you have to know enough to assense the person and you have to be willing to do that instead of casting a spell.

All are very unlikely in the extreme.

As for having it active all the time, this is the bloody point. You don't have to have the force one focus active all the time and you lose very little by turing it off before wards or even in general (and then turning it on afterwards).

Besides especially with a caster-only version (assuming Spell Design which seems likely to me), even with 16 dice, you can still easily drop and recast this focus bypassing wards altogether.

-Polaris

[Cain]

We're still debating starting characters, and I have yet to see a starting mage with Masking. It's quite popular IMG, but not for starting mages, even when initiation is allowed. Most will opt for Centering instead.

So, anyone capable of astral perception will know that you have a sustained spell active on you. That's not really argueable, or the point. Without resorting to Evil GM tactics, low-force Increase Reflexes +3 spells are not a major problem; a few wards here and there, a few malicious wandering spirits, and strict use of the surprise rules will prevent it from being an overwhelming advantage.

Remember, surprise can happen at any time, and suprise tests are handled through a Reaction roll, not Initiative. The spell doesn't help at all on surprise tests, which pretty much means for the first action of any combat, the mage will be incapable of action. Reaction-enhancing cyber does help, however.

[BitBasher]

[John Campbell]

Here's something to consider: When was the last time you saw a mundane gunbunny go, "Ah, screw this expensive cyber stuff. I'll just get the mage to sustain Increase Reflexes on me."?

[Polaris]

Bitbasher,

Maybe you and those like you should start giving a rat's ass. If the game system encourages you to make characters that are antithetical to the genera and you gain definate advantages by doing so then the game system needs to be altered. If you don't care, then the problems do not get fixed.

BTW, I find Champs to be just as broke in some respects as SR, but at least in Champs some effort is made to balance Char-Gen w/r/t the genera sought.

Cain,

In combat, you are right. Unless you have masking (which a starting character can technically get btw), it is not hard for a mage to pick it up if he has astral sight (either assensing, perceiving, or projecting).

That said, the focus can be down pretty much at all other times which was really the point. In combat, attacking the focus is usually pretty lame. You are almost always better off attacking the magician directly (especially since you may want that focus later to sell....especially in the case of a force 1 focus since you can hawk that on the local street corner with no paperwork required). In short, in almost all cases, this focus simply will not be targeted.

John Cambell,

There are several reasons. In the first place almost no mage will place an increased reflexes spell on his mundane buddy. The reason has nothing to do with the cost benefit of the spell. Rather most mages dislike leaving a material link (and a focus is always a material link) out of thier direct control. In addition to that, the spell does not stack with cyberware or bioware and since cyberware also in general gives reaction increases, you are almost always better off as a mundane character doing that. In addition to that a mundane can not turn on or off the spell (for wards and such) while a mage can. In addition to that, the mage can turn the spell off at any time.....leaving the mundane up a very brown creek.

In short, the reason you don't see a lot of mundanes with sustained Increase Reflexes +3 force 1 up is control....all the control goes to the enchanting mage who will not want a material link out of his immediate control.

-Polaris

[Siege]

Because something is broken or has the potential to be abused doesn't require that you abuse it.

The game system that has a rule to cover every possible combination or contingency is an accounting nightmare that I'd rather not experience.

-Siege

[Polaris]

Seige,

In shadowrun it does. After all, a runner (if he expects to survive) should look to get every possible edge he can find, and create any edges that he can not find. That directly implies that if you find an abusive loophole, then you as a player need to be using that loophole.

It also means that if FanPro wishes to preserve the Genera they want in SR, they need to fix abusive loopholes. The responsibility for solid rules falls on the developer not the player. Don't think for a moment that the player is somehow at fault for taking advantage of faulty rules. That fault lies with the GM and more importantly with the publisher and designer of the system.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Well, just an FYI, if you tried to Reduce Willpower/Increase Willpower in a game I ran, then I'd do the following:

Add the Force of the Decrease Willpower to your TN to cast the spell.
- and/or -
Allow you to negate the previous spell, extra successes being lost.

It just wouldn't happen, and I know that the majority of the GMs out there would use a similar rule or just not allow it at all. Regardless, in anyone's game but your own, your starting character wouldn't have access to a Decreased Willpower (unless you had the spell yourself) and wouldn't get to stack them like that even if you had the spell. THEREFOR, no way in hell for you to have 20 dice for drain.

Now, I know you'll argue further, unfortunately, I'm on my way to France for the weekend, so good luck convincing yourself how right you are. Nobody else is going to believe it because our Run-Fu is mightier than your DreamingYourAssOff-Fu. :P

Sphynx

[John Campbell]

[The White Dwarf]

NOBODY CARES about all this "I can get xxx dice crap". Its completly NOT relevent to the reflex dealy. Its been started that with a self only version of the spell the drain is moot, and even without a self only version it can be delt with via other avenues.

Going on and on about "this is the best way cause we do it in our games blah blah" means nothing, because (for most everyone here) were not playing in the same game.

Sombody prove how having the spell is a problem. Its been shown that theres a number of ways to obtain it, via casting, focus, quickening etc. Whether or not its masked isnt really important, that just impacts how you get the spell onto your guy. Point is once its there, whats the problem.

Answer: there is none. Havent seen one situation why this is an issue. And theres some arguments why not to do it (such as dice dont refresh anyhow, and it frees up resources to be better spend on other things if you only plan on casting one big spell a turn). This is hardly a "omg broken everyone will take it" situation.

[Polaris]

John Campbell,

Read what I post before declaring "victory". The cyber or bio is better for a mundane character because:

1. The mundane can not turn off the spell which does create problems with wards and such (although less than you might think).

2. Most of your initiative is in the hands of someone else. No smart runner is going to do this especially when that someone else can turn it off at any time.

3. Most mages won't do this for a mundane at any price because of the linking issue making the issue moot for mundanes.

White Dwarf,

The combination of the focus and force 1 improved reflexes (+3) is so cheap, gives so much, for so little drawback that indeed every mage should take it. That makes this a balance problem. What else would you like me to prove?

The point is that +10 to initiative is not a huge deal for a mage although it is an extra pass which is always nice. OTOH, the price you pay for it (nearly nothing) makes it far too cheap....and therin lies the balance issue as I see it anyway.

Sphynx,

Bully for you on having a house rule that covers this. Really, I mean it and wish you well. My GM has a similiar house-rule (increase attribute spells always use the natural attribute not the actual one in his game). That said, when discussing rules we need to stick with the vanilla core rules and by that this system works. It is a loophole that needs to be closed, but until it is, it remains a perfectly valid way for a mage to boost his attributes through the ceiling.

-Polaris

[The White Dwarf]

Alright, let me try a different approach. Lets examine what you get for what it costs, and compare.

You get:

To find what this spell actually does you have to start at the ground up for initative. Most mages have a quickness of 4 to 6, and an intelligence of 6. This means in total your base initiative values will range from 9 (base 5 with four 1's rolled) up to 30 (base 6 with four 6's rolled) after this spell is applied in its +3 dice version. In terms of minimum/average/maximum number of actions youre looking at 1/1/2 without the spell, and 2/2/3 with the spell. So in this case, the spell does add one action across the board. Im going to avoid the astral implications because its difficult to compare that to other enchancements, and also because the already inflated values will decrease the impact proportionally. Just make a note that it helps you there as well, on some level. Also note that it doesnt increase Reaction at all so is of no help on surprise tests.

Cost:

Theres several ways of going about obtaining and maintaining this effect on your character. The most obvious are to either obtain a force 1 focus to maintain the effect or by quickening the spell. Both have merits and interact differently with wards, so I will try to come up with a cost for both.

For the former, you would presumably take the knowedge skill spell design (at skill level 1 or more for this scenario) in order to craft a self only version of the spell. Since this would take time to do and there are no given rules for how much "time" a character has in the "past" before theyre created and put "into play" Im going to assume you simply do this ASAP once the game starts. During creation you would purchase a force 1 sustaining focus for 15000 nuyen, as well as a Force 1 Sorcery Library to use in the design for 1000 nuyen. The base design time is 60 days. Assuming 1 run per month, which is a fair standard, you would easily accumulate the karma for the next step. Once the spell is completed you pay 1 karma to learn it (base time 1 day) and 1 karma to bond the focus to it. Net result: you spend 1 knowledge skill point, 16000 starting nuyen, and 2 karma to obtain the setup for the third game session. If the GM required you to have the base spell learned already before allowing you to research a new variety, you would also have to invest 1 starting Spell Point. Also, if you wanted to counter many of the flaws of this setup you could initiate and learn quickening, but that would likley take another ~12 karma (depending upon joining cost and grade level and options used etc).

For the latter, you could start off with the tools. Now Im no expert no this so Im going to assume Sphynx knows his stuff in this department having playtested it far more than I. Presumably you would need the spell (base version is fine) at Force 6 and you would need to initiate to grade 1 to learn quicking, for a total cost of 18 starting Spell Points (6 for spell, 3 to join group, 9 for cheapest initiation possible). Now you would need 12 karma to Quicken the spell at maximum effectiveness. For comparative purposes one could assume it would take the same 2 months to earn this amount, although your milage may vary.

Conclusion:

The first method of this setup requires little more than some starting cash and a little in game dice rolling. However to really be effective you would probably wish to learn masking which takes some karma as well. The second method is money free, but at a cost of 18 of your initial 25 Spell Points- which means you either have to hold off on the initiation or spend starting cash to buy more spell points. Both of those methods up the investment by a fairly big margin in karma or build points, depending on what you do. Bottom line is that in both cases it is *likely* that you will sink the first 10 to 20 karma you earn setting it up in a manner that makes it, for most purposes, permanently on. Call it the first 3 adventures of karma.

Compare:

to Cyberware. To get the same +10 initiative I will turn to Wired Reflexes Level 2. It adds, on average, 10 to your initiative. To make a comparison I will assume a few things. Firstly, since the mage spent 30 BP on Magic, this character will spend the same 30 on Resources, leaving the same number of BP left for other areas (thus equal). Now, a Magician will likley not touch thier essence but are instead limited by Spell Points. The other character has no Spell Points but has 6 points of Essence to limit what he can improve. Thus, Spell Points are fairly relative to Essence Points; even so far as spending cash to buy more spell points or spending cash to alphaware cyber to get more; in terms of the analogy.

So compare the above spell to this 3 essence cyberware, with those ideas in mind. Keep in mind that this also adds to reaction, which not only aids in surprise tests but provides a better average value (its like the 3rd spell die always comes up 4) as well as a higher minimum (and thus garunteeing 2 actions even when wounded). It has the exact same 2/2/3 spread because while the high value is a few lower it doesnt change the number of actions per round. Also bear in mind that Spell Pool and possibly Sorcery dice will *NOT* refresh on this additional action.

Results:

Looking at the this post in total Ive decided a few things. 1) The spell certainly isnt broken. Either rig, while potentially available out of the box DOES take some in game effort to setup. They also take time and karma. 2) Wired Reflexes are way better than this spell. In terms of what investment of character resources they take, relative to mages versus sams, mages get screwed. 3) I cant really see myself taking the spell on a game advantage front anymore because theyre too ineffecient to start with. They just take too much of the valuble first karma I would get. Especically because the way I favor allocating my dice doesnt lend itself to chain casting spells before refresh. While it is something I would pickup at some point just to counter the low initiative frustration, and maybe so I can win against non-enchanced folks, its not something I would gun for as an intergral part of the character from the get go.