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> Cough, I Have not Spoken in Years..., a rant
Big Crow
post Dec 11 2005, 07:54 AM
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Well, at least his belongs here.

Big Crow bought the first SR book available in Lincoln. Why? God only knows, well that, and he was friends with a storeowner who could rival Pete.
Big Crow and his friends spent years gaming SR, and after each session, Big Crow would say, "I talked to 'X', and we have been doing 'Y' wrong all this time... Because SR 1 was written so badly...

That was the original essence of Shadowrun. Printing errors, mind-fcking mistakes, and no easy way to get errata. However, it was always better than D&D.

Then SR2. I still own the entire second, first runs. Sad. I never joined the RPGA, because, well, why? However, I was always invited, back then, to run SR for the Local Yokels
.
3Rd. Meh. I loved it, and still do. But I could never convinced enough people to lay out the cash (In the days before Drive-Thru) for them to make it interesting enough to continue. All the Cons at that point dreade3d me. I would always ruin a Gm's plot; take the easiest way out. I guess it was too easy to abuse. When you have a rules are full, the Power-Gamer will walk the Earth.

Time passes.

Incidentally, for a while, I thought FASA was tappin' my room. All my house rules ended up, in a way, in Game, or as a Card. Hand'o'God, lucky Rabbit's Foot (I think Dunk owes me, since I created the first Magic Item used by a mundy...) And Native Blood Magic (being both a Fan of ED and being Native myself...).

4th Ed?

To start. Man, I asked everyone in my pathetic City to order it for me. I support local business. But they said, "Shadowrun, come on, those Dolls killed that game". So I said, "I have money..."

Still I could not get a damn book. Luckily, I guess, a store owner I know over-ordered his allotment, and got six books when it came out. Did he save one for me? NO.

I had to wait another 2 weeks, and he still bitched, "I hope people buy these (3) books. *Sold out that day.* I will give him credit, he kept one back, and sold it to me at cost.

But still, will he look into future publications? No, "Let's see how it sells."

I told him, you sold 9 of this system within a month, through word-of-mouth, so explain why I should not buy from either the company, or Amazon?" I still have not gotten an answer.

Anyway, SR4, dunno yet, but I am game. I have been running (ruining) this game for, what was it, '89??? So 16 years. I do not know if it is just me, but, 4th Ed. reminds me so much of 1st Ed.; not through mechanics, but through presentation. I thought I would never, no mater how many classes (university) I took, be so lost in a subject. Then, and now.

Not badly written. In fact, I like the newer style. What I do not like, is flipping through hundred of pages, and back and forth, just to resolve a simple action. (When we made characters for our new foray, I was on the verge of slapping my players, and the editor.

I thought we were, simplifying. Just kidding, we have, but it is an ouch for the silent majority of us whom take what we are given. D&D is up to 3.5, after nearly 30 years, SR? Four rules systems in one head, no one can live at that speed.

I am certain/Thinking a Gm screen will sort this for me.

What a big change. SR4 Needs a warning label. "Caution: Experienced Players will Take about as Year to Get how much Better This Is Than the Last Edition."

And even after all this, I really hope a year from now I can wander to a local shop to get whatever is being published by FanPro.


Incidently, not to avertise, check out Great Idea.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 11 2005, 09:37 AM
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I really feel you, I've been there myself.

But rather than just post a simple "me too", I figured that I'd nitpick:

QUOTE
D&D is up to 3.5, after nearly 30 years, SR?


That's because of some creative accounting on the editions. See, there have been four distinct editions of Dungeons and Dragons, but the last one was called "3.5" because it was put out in such a shprt time after 3rd edition came out. The thing is, they weren't making Dungeons and Dragons for over 20 years before 3rd ed came out, they were making Advanced Dungeons and Dragons between the late seventies and the end of the twentieth century.

3rd edition D&D isn't the edition of D&D after AD&D 2nd edition, that was Revised Edition AD&D 2nd Edition. No, 3rd Edition D&D is the successor to D&D Basic Set from 1977, which in turn was the successor to the Dungeons and Dragons game that came off of Greyhawk. In the over 30 years we've had D&D, we've had seven editions. And that's only if you don't count "Chainmail", "Greyhawk", or "Blackmoor" as being editions of D&D.

Looked at in that context, SR has been pretty relaxed about new editions. 3 new editions in 16 years is pretty good compared to what the D&D folks have to go through - they get a new rules set every 3.5 years like clockwork.

-Frank
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Mr.Platinum
post Dec 11 2005, 01:29 PM
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Oh man thats to much to read first thing in the morning, but rock on brother.
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Bull
post Dec 11 2005, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I really feel you, I've been there myself.

But rather than just post a simple "me too", I figured that I'd nitpick:

QUOTE
D&D is up to 3.5, after nearly 30 years, SR?


That's because of some creative accounting on the editions. See, there have been four distinct editions of Dungeons and Dragons, but the last one was called "3.5" because it was put out in such a shprt time after 3rd edition came out. The thing is, they weren't making Dungeons and Dragons for over 20 years before 3rd ed came out, they were making Advanced Dungeons and Dragons between the late seventies and the end of the twentieth century.

3rd edition D&D isn't the edition of D&D after AD&D 2nd edition, that was Revised Edition AD&D 2nd Edition. No, 3rd Edition D&D is the successor to D&D Basic Set from 1977, which in turn was the successor to the Dungeons and Dragons game that came off of Greyhawk. In the over 30 years we've had D&D, we've had seven editions. And that's only if you don't count "Chainmail", "Greyhawk", or "Blackmoor" as being editions of D&D.

Looked at in that context, SR has been pretty relaxed about new editions. 3 new editions in 16 years is pretty good compared to what the D&D folks have to go through - they get a new rules set every 3.5 years like clockwork.

-Frank

Lessee, Basic D&D had 5 distinct prints/publishing that I can recall, 4 of which I've owned. Advanced D&D had 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, and 2nd Ed revised, which with the "Options" books that many groups tended to consider necessary core books, it really was a new edition. Then 3.0 and 3.5.

Not to mention numerous "Specalty" settings that had entire sets of unique rules and world information (Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms being relativly tame, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun being a bit more involved).

Hell, how many editions is Chaosium's Cthulhu up to? Not counting the D20 version? :]

Deadlands is about to hit it's 4th version (Deadlands had a "Revised" edition a couple years after it orginallyw as released, plus the D20 version, and now Reloaded is coming out. And this doesn't include Deadlands: Hell on Earth or Lost Colony, which I'm not sure ever even saw print).

Gurps is up to 4 "official" editions, and I think they've gone the "Revised" route once or twice.

Vampire is on it's 4th edition, IIRC. Might only be three, with a possible revised or two in there.

Eh, not even sure what my point is, other than we were disucssing multiple editions :)

Bull
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Adam
post Dec 11 2005, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE
Deadlands is about to hit it's 4th version (Deadlands had a "Revised" edition a couple years after it orginallyw as released, plus the D20 version, and now Reloaded is coming out. And this doesn't include Deadlands: Hell on Earth or Lost Colony, which I'm not sure ever even saw print).

You forgot GURPS: Deadlands. :-)
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Bull
post Dec 11 2005, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (Adam)
You forgot GURPS: Deadlands. :-)

Ack! You're right! Plus GURPS: Vampire!

Has there been a GURPS: Cthulhu? Or GURPS: GURPS? :)

Hrmm, maybe TriStat D20 GURPS with FUDGE conversion rules. :)

Bull
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Ancient History
post Dec 11 2005, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Bull)

Has there been a GURPS: Cthulhu? Or GURPS: GURPS? :)

I can recall at least one half-assed try at GURPS: Cthulhu, or something similar. Are you counting D&D's little ill-considered bout with the Mythos?
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Clyde
post Dec 11 2005, 05:30 PM
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I love how the complaints about SR4 have gone from:

"I can't stand to play anything so dumbed down" to

"I can't understand this"

But hey, man, try the conversion from D&D 3.0 to 3.5. THAT was a real screw job - never knowing if a rule had changed in some stupid little way.
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Demon_Bob
post Dec 11 2005, 06:00 PM
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I still can't quite see where this streamlining of the rules Translates to faster gameplay
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 11 2005, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
I still can't quite see where this streamlining of the rules Translates to faster gameplay

The die rolling step, especially for knowledge tests.

Old rules:

step 1: Roll 3 dice.
Step 2: That six you rolled? Roll it again.
Step 3: Report Die results: "I rolled a 3, a 4, and a 9."
Step 4: Gamemaster compares dice rolled to the TN in his head of 4, and realizes that you got 2 successes.
Step 5: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

New rules:

step 1: Roll 6 dice.
Step 2: Report Results: "I got 3 hits"
Step 3: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

The fact that the player reports the total number of hits as an integer number, rather than giving a categorical list of how many successes would be achieved at different TNs for the GM to sort out really makes it go a lot faster.

-Frank
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Orb
post Dec 11 2005, 06:24 PM
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I've gotta agree with Frank on this one.

I GM for a large group of 7 PCs. When we played 3rd ed., it was often painfully slow - that was my biggest complaint about 3rd ed. Now when playing 4th ed. it seems that the pace is much quicker, especially for combat. So far I've been impressed with how smooth the system works in practice.

-Robert



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BookWyrm
post Dec 11 2005, 11:08 PM
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{hands Big Crow a glass of ice-water}

I know your pain, Big Crow. Ordering thought some channels is difficult at best & non-existant at worst. I use Diamond's Previews catalog system, thankfully my local comic shop does.
I too blanched at the aspect of having to re-learn everything, thanks to the so-called "upgrade" to SR4. But I see it as yet another challenge in my life, one I embrace.
It does NOT mean that SR3 is completely dead. Use the system that you feel is better, and adapt the new stuff to it. I think your right inyour assumtion that the upcoming GM's Screen will help. If not, then send a message to FanPro & request a PDF of a 'quick-start rules' that will ease the transition pain (ala GURPS Lite).
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TheFr0g
post Dec 12 2005, 01:26 AM
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I don't see the problem. Its difficult to get used to after all these years of one system, but I haven't had any trouble figuring out the new system. The only complaint I have (and I make it grudgingly), is that it requires a LOT of dice. Usually I love big handfulls of dice... but this is a bit excessive.
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BookWyrm
post Dec 12 2005, 08:26 AM
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If you check with your local gaming source, or wait until Spring/Summer for the first local Sci-Fi cons, you can get all the dice you need at very inexpensive prices. Every year, I attend ICON & Chessex always has a dice-dealership table right at the beginging of the first isle. You can pick up whole sets for a few dollars, or scoop up a coffee-mug of dice for under $5. By the last day of the weekend, I had a freind replace several years worth of lost dice for under $20, including the leather pouch he bought to carry them in.

My own 'set' of 6-sided I use for SR are small (8mm, I think), but I have 2 of almost every color, a full 40. Now all I need are the GitD's. Last year they had no individuals for sale. But I shall have them. Oh yes, I shall.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Dec 12 2005, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Dec 11 2005, 01:00 PM)
I still can't quite see where this streamlining of the rules Translates to faster gameplay

The die rolling step, especially for knowledge tests.

Old rules:

step 1: Roll 3 dice.
Step 2: That six you rolled? Roll it again.
Step 3: Report Die results: "I rolled a 3, a 4, and a 9."
Step 4: Gamemaster compares dice rolled to the TN in his head of 4, and realizes that you got 2 successes.
Step 5: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

New rules:

step 1: Roll 6 dice.
Step 2: Report Results: "I got 3 hits"
Step 3: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

The fact that the player reports the total number of hits as an integer number, rather than giving a categorical list of how many successes would be achieved at different TNs for the GM to sort out really makes it go a lot faster.

-Frank

yeah but it would basically be the same number of steps if the GM just mentioned the TN when telling them to make that knowledge check.
SR3
1. yeah mkae a knowlege paranorlaml animals check. TN 4
2. roll dice
3. report resluts 3 4+
4. It's a barghest head."

SR4
1. yeah mkae a knowlege paranorlaml animals check
2. roll dice
3. report resluts 3 5+
4. It's a barghest head

Sr 3 would add a step if the TN was above 6, or your making an open test or something but that's it.
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Shrike30
post Dec 12 2005, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (TheFr0g)
I don't see the problem. Its difficult to get used to after all these years of one system, but I haven't had any trouble figuring out the new system. The only complaint I have (and I make it grudgingly), is that it requires a LOT of dice. Usually I love big handfulls of dice... but this is a bit excessive.

Until you've seen a full-size ork mob in Warhammer 40k charge into an assault, you've not seen "a LOT of dice."

Seriously. First, you've got the exchange of handgun fire, 32 dice with successes rerolled twice before you get the final results. Then comes the charge... and the 128 dice with two rerolls... :eek:
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TheHappyAnarchis...
post Dec 12 2005, 11:17 PM
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Don't forget. The other player makes the second reroll, dependant on their stats, which gets modified by the ork mobs weapon. :)
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Shrike30
post Dec 12 2005, 11:23 PM
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Yeah, and that's not even including the possibility of them using burnas as power weapons or the whole template dealie (who knows HOW many dice that thing will add?), the Nob having different stats and possibly a Klaw or something similarly evil...

Yeah. You wanna talk lots of dice? HappyA knows what I'm talking about... :)
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Shinobi Killfist
post Dec 13 2005, 12:03 AM
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roll dice for warhammer 40k???
my computer does that for me behind the scens, or are you not talking about the lovely dawn fo war game. :D

Miniture games always just seemed to expensive of a hobby to me.
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TheFr0g
post Dec 13 2005, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
Don't forget. The other player makes the second reroll, dependant on their stats, which gets modified by the ork mobs weapon. :)

Eh... I cut my teeth on an unreasonably overpowered D6 Star Wars campaign, where rolls over 50 weren't uncommon, so I'm familiar with it, it just tends to slow things down more than I would like.
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Shrike30
post Dec 13 2005, 12:16 AM
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I'll grant you that 40k's an expensive habit... a standard 1500 point army easily cruises around 400-500 USD if you buy all of your stuff at list price. But between the modelling, the painting, and the playing, I'd say I've gotten more than my money's worth out of it in fun alone.

It's kind of like owning a gaming console. Someone wants to cough up a few hundred bucks plus 50-odd dollars a game, that's their thing. I prefer to do it for little models that I largely get to shape and paint, and then mess around with them on a miniature battlefield.

Woo, getting way OT here...
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eidolon
post Dec 13 2005, 01:23 AM
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I've decided to quit before my first game of 40k. I started assembling an IG army. I love putting them together and having them, but I get tired of painting multiple figures (I prefer to paint single character figs rather than armies, as it turns out). On top of this, I'm discovering that I just don't want to continually spend that much money on a game that I actually don't get all that much enjoyment out of.

Now I'm stuck between either selling off my army as is (mostly painted), or finish painting it and then sell it. It's hard to work up the interest when the end state is the same.
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Shrike30
post Dec 13 2005, 05:32 AM
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My brother plays IG. He might be interested.
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Cain
post Dec 13 2005, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 11 2005, 11:15 AM)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Dec 11 2005, 01:00 PM)
I still can't quite see where this streamlining of the rules Translates to faster gameplay

The die rolling step, especially for knowledge tests.

Old rules:

step 1: Roll 3 dice.
Step 2: That six you rolled? Roll it again.
Step 3: Report Die results: "I rolled a 3, a 4, and a 9."
Step 4: Gamemaster compares dice rolled to the TN in his head of 4, and realizes that you got 2 successes.
Step 5: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

New rules:

step 1: Roll 6 dice.
Step 2: Report Results: "I got 3 hits"
Step 3: Gamemaster reports information: "It's a barghest head."

The fact that the player reports the total number of hits as an integer number, rather than giving a categorical list of how many successes would be achieved at different TNs for the GM to sort out really makes it go a lot faster.

I wish.

My old SR combat went something like this:

Step 1: Me: "Roll against this TN".
Step 2: Player rolls, reports successes.
Step 3: Opponent rolls combat pool for defense, if any; then rolls soak.
Step 4: Calculate net successes and apply damage.

My SR$ trial went something like this:
Step 1: Me: "Roll your attack skill".
Step 2: Spend five minutes looking up modifiers.
Step 3: Player rolls, reports successes.
Step 4: Spend five minutes looking up modifiers.
Step 5: Opponent rolls defense.
Step 6: Spend five minutes looking up modifiers.
Step 7: Calculate if damage is Physical or Stun.
Step 8: Spend five minutes looking up modifiers.
Step 9: Opponent rolls soak.
Step 10: Spend another five minutes calculating damage points and apply it.
Step 11: Compare damage boxes to character's total to determine if character is incapacitated, and calculate damage modifiers.

Since everything in SR4 adds or subtracts from your dice rolled, I can't calculate the total modifers on the fly for the players. Under SR3, I could very quickly abstract out a TN, and if I were off by a bit, no one would ever know. Now, players have to know every last modifer that they have to deal with.

I recently tried introducing my gaming group to both SR4 and Savage Worlds. Savage Worlds was added to our repetoire almost instantly. I'm going to have to do some serious arm-twisting to get them to ever play SR$ again.
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BishopMcQ
post Dec 13 2005, 07:49 AM
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Cain--I would say to look at how long each game has been played...every new system takes awhile to memorize and master all the various modifiers. I've been working with very specific skill groups and can almost rattle off each modifier without looking at the book because I've referenced it som many times. The same thing happened in SR3 and will happen eventually for everyone who plays SR4 regularly.
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