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> How vital are complex forms for technomancers?, I haven't bought SR4 yet.
emo samurai
post Dec 13 2005, 03:25 AM
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They're really cheap at character creation. If they're the main focus of all the technomancer's power, then technomancers seem pretty broken to me.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 13 2005, 03:46 AM
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It's not that they are particularly cheap to purchase with BP, it's that they are OMFGWTFLOL expensive to buy with Karma. A complex form at rating 6 costs 6 BP, or about 30,000 :nuyen: - that's an extra zero over what you'd be paying to get any program at the same rating for running on your commlinks. A rating 6 Complex Form costs twice what you'd pay for a new spell in BP, and despite this fact you're still going to buy it as a Technomancer because it costs over four times as much to buy that Complex Form as a spell later on.

As to how vital they are? Extremely vital. If you don't have a good Analyze, Scan, Browse, Command, and Edit, there's pretty much jack you can do in the Matrix (an unfortunate situation to be in for a technomancer). And if you ever want to get any hacking done, you'll want Sniffer, Spoof, Exploit, Decrypt, and Stealth before we've even gotten to combat forms, which you actually don't have room for unless you have a Logic above 5.

-Frank
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Jaid
post Dec 13 2005, 03:47 AM
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compare them to the BP cost needed for resources that a hacker would spend.

they're expensive enough, in terms of BP.

also, don't forget, a regular hacker (assuming no house rules) can have stats of all 1s and be an effective hacker (although completely useless for anything except hacking, and likely couldn't show his face around real hackers who would trick him into doing countless stupid things).

but yeah, technomancer complex forms are very BP intensive.
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emo samurai
post Dec 13 2005, 04:03 AM
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So are they that much better than hackers just because they don't need as much equipment?
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Drace
post Dec 13 2005, 04:14 AM
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no, not because they dont need equipment, but because of their permament bio-feedback filters always running, and the ability to be submersed and become uber-hackers of a sort over time.
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emo samurai
post Dec 13 2005, 04:35 AM
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They have more potential?
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ElFenrir
post Dec 13 2005, 05:54 AM
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Submersion=initation for technomancers. Their Resonance attribute can go above six. They can become quite the VR pimps over time.

Also keep in mind they can 'thread' forms. Or basically create complex forms they don't have at the time. This causes 'fading' (drain), but if you NEED that Sniffer program and don't have it, a hacker is SOL unless he buys it...a technomancer can just create it.

And then there are sprites...yeah, technomancers have some serious potential.
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Cain
post Dec 13 2005, 08:09 AM
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Meh. Initially, they start out a lot weaker than hackers/deckers, since all a decker needs is one or two high skills and a lot of high programs. One of my experimental deckers had very low attributes, medium skills, a ton of cash and an Edge of 8. He was pretty much invincible.

Technomancers are kinda like the old physmages. Eventually, they can become ungodly, given enough karma. But in the short term, they frequently get overrun by both specialists and generalists. About the only edge they have is Sprites, and even that is overrated.
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Valentinew
post Dec 13 2005, 05:13 PM
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I've only just started playing my techno, but I gotta say, I really like the ability to thread any of the complex forms I might need. Yeah, it costs me some fading, but the possibilities are great!
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mfb
post Dec 13 2005, 06:46 PM
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technomancers, in some ways, get kinda shafted. they're not quite as good as the top-end starting-level deckers. they're hurt by cyberware like mages, but unlike mages, their skills can't help them in the meat.
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Lord Ben
post Dec 13 2005, 08:06 PM
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Don't you suffer -2 to everything though while doing a complex form, so your analyze, scan, armor, etc are all lower while threading exploit? And you'd need 3 hits to just be at +1 while threating the ONE form and -2 to everything else.

I haven't seen one in game, but it looks like threading hurts.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 13 2005, 08:38 PM
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As far as I can tell, the only thing worth Threading is a program you otherwise wouldn't have at all (such as Defuse) and which is only used by itself (such as Track).

Compared to the total BP cost of just having all programs at rating 6 for a Hacker (19 BP), the whole Technomancer hacking experience is just pretty underwhelming. Where Technos really shine, I think, is in Rigging.

Rigging only requires a couple of forms: Command, Encrypt, ECCM, and Scan. And a Technomancer can jump into a Drone in VR and overclock it up to 4 IPs. The technomancer can even have Machine Sprites jump into other drones and pilot them around as well.

For 28 Karma, you can have 4 IPs in drones, and have a Resonance of 5 despite your Control Rig and Smartlink. You can substantially outshine Street Samurai in terms of whup-ass per turn. I don't think you can meaningfully compete with the Hacker in terms of hacking into enemy nodes and stealing paydata within the life of an average game, but I don't think anyone can compete with a Technomancer Rigger in terms of raw ass-kicking.

-Frank
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Lord Ben
post Dec 13 2005, 08:48 PM
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How many programs even exist for a technomancer? What would it take to start with all in 6? A hundred BP? It's not like you need many other skills really.
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Valentinew
post Dec 13 2005, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Don't you suffer -2 to everything though while doing a complex form, so your analyze, scan, armor, etc are all lower while threading exploit?  And you'd need 3 hits to just be at +1 while threating the ONE form and -2 to everything else.


You suffer a -2 penalty for sustaining a complex form you've threaded. (p.233-4) As far as I can tell, there's no penalty for sustaining a complex form you know.

QUOTE (Lord Ben)
How many programs even exist for a technomancer? What would it take to start with all in 6? A hundred BP? It's not like you need many other skills really.


A technomancer can start with any of the programs listed for hackers...so, about 21 programs are available to choose from. Per the quote below, though, the most you could start with, ever, would be 14, assuming a Logic of 7. The cost to have 14 complex forms at Rating 6 would be 84 BPs...plus 20 BP for Exceptional Attribute, & 75 BPs for a Logic of 7...total of 179 BPs. I just don't ever see this happening for a 400-pt starting character...although if someone does, I'd like to see it & hear how it worked.

QUOTE (p. 86)
These forms can be bought at character creation at a cost of 1 BP per rating point.  A Rating 4 Armor complex form, for example, would cost 4 BPs.  The maximum number of complex forms your character can learn during character creation, regardless of rating, is equal to your character's Logic x 2


Sorry, I got carried away with the math.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 13 2005, 09:34 PM
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There are 22 Programs in the basic book (expect more in Unwired). Of those, Technomancers have no real use for Medic and can't use Biofeedback Filter at all. Blackout and Blackhammer are redundant. So really there's 19 listed Complex Forms you might want.

And you can't have more than 14 to start with no matter what you do. So there's always at least 5 programs that you can't duplicate. Even if you do raise your starting Logic to 7 and spend all 84 BPs allowed on Complex Forms.

-Frank
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emo samurai
post Dec 13 2005, 10:12 PM
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So... um... why should anyone play a technomancer? And is fading basically drain, or is it the more permanent fading that Otaku face?
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Lord Ben
post Dec 13 2005, 10:32 PM
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Sure, but if you have exploit 6 and resonance 6 and want to thread it up to a 12 you'll have effectively a 10 in exploit, but everything else is at -2 dice.
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blakkie
post Dec 13 2005, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
So... um... why should anyone play a technomancer? And is fading basically drain, or is it the more permanent fading that Otaku face?

I can't think of any subtial differences off the top of my head, but in game mechanics Fading is Drain. The permanent Fading that Otaku had is gone. Same name, different effect.
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Lord Ben
post Dec 13 2005, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
So... um... why should anyone play a technomancer? And is fading basically drain, or is it the more permanent fading that Otaku face?

For the ability to have 6 exploit, then thread your form for 12 (-2 sustaining) and then get a rating 6 sprite who aids you in exploit and maybe get a specialty in commlinks and a codebreaker exploit quality for another +2.

Total is 6 hacking +2 commlinks, +2 codebreaker quality, 12 exploit program, +6 rating sprite -2 sustaining for a grand total of a 26 dice hacking pool.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 13 2005, 11:20 PM
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Technomancers have access to a number of powers that other characters cannot have.

Overclocking: You can get a fourth Initiative Pass. This is largely pointless for Hacking operations other than Cybercombat, because Firewalls get to try to notice you hacking them every time you make the attempt (so if you have more IPs, they have more IPs), and a lot of Hacking Actions have intervals of combat turns rather than actions. But in Rigging, this is super sweet. Your drones behave as if they have Wired 3, and you can get this long before a Street Sam could reasonably expect to save up for a level 3 initiative booster.

Suppression: Remember how Overclocking didn't matter for Hackng on the Fly because the Firewall tested for alert status every time you got an action? Well, the Suppression Power (available only to Crack Sprites) delays alerts for several combat rounds. This means that even though Fastjack himself can't reasonably expect to hack himself Admin access in a Rating 5 Firewall runing Rating 5 Analyze without triggering an Alert, a frickin Rating 4 Crack Sprite can. After which, of course, the pending alert can simply be removed from the queue.

Infinite Signal Rating: Well, for Drones at least. A Machine Sprite can go inside a Drone and control it from there, meaning that it can run an unlimited distance deep in areas of jamming and still operate normally.

-Frank
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 01:49 AM
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k00l........... How long do sprites last? And how intelligent are they? And can you put one in a car that has a powerful computer in it?
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Jaid
post Dec 14 2005, 02:33 AM
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sprites are more or less exactly like spirits in terms of summoning/binding (or whatever they call it), and can inhabit any electronic device more or less (provided they can get to it).

thus, pretty much any car, regardless of computer power, can hold a sprite.
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emo samurai
post Dec 14 2005, 03:37 AM
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How long do they last? And how smart are they?
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masterTwig
post Dec 14 2005, 03:51 AM
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8 hours for an unregistered sprite
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Ranneko
post Dec 14 2005, 04:42 AM
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Generally with a pilot rating equal to rating.

And of course, registration costs no money, just time.
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