 Reverse-Engineering the Spell Formulae, anyone else done this? |
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 Dec 14 2005, 01:46 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070  |
I'm attempting to reverse-engineer the spell formulae of the spells in the core SR4 rulebook, mainly because my players are dying to create some new spells to match those they made back in the day.
I'd like to know first off, since I'm new here, if posting my results of these formulae would be kosher on these forums. If so, tell me, and I'll continue and discuss =) |
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Dec 14 2005, 03:18 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
I'd have no problem with it. That being said, I tried reverse-engineering the NPC grunt/lieutenant system a while back and posted some slapped-together enemy creation rules for it, but nobody seemed to care much.
My advise is to do as much as you need, but don't expect anyone to give a crap. :P |
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Dec 14 2005, 03:23 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Well, so far I've worked out the Combat spells, using Manabolt as the base spell. Drain starts at F/2, Type is Mana, Damage is Physical, Range is LOS and Direct, Duration is Instant.
The following modifiers adjust the drain: Physical Type +1 Stun Damage -1 Touch Range -2 Area Effect +2 Indirect Effect -1 Elemental Effect +3 So far, the only spells that don't fit, as presented in the Core book, are the Punch/Clout/Blast line, which these mods would give a drain of 1 less than listed. Working on Illusion spells now, as I'm saving the basis for Detection for when I have more time to delve deeper into the formulae. |
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Dec 14 2005, 03:39 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Illusion spells so far have similar formulae.
The base Illusion spell template has Type as Mana (+0), Category as Illusion (-1, inspired by SR3), Sustained Duration (+1), LOS Range, Single-Sense and Realistic affectation, and Indirect effect (cast on self or other indirectly, unresisted, could also be considered "voluntary"). The following Drain mods apply: Physical Type +1 Tough Range -1 Multi-Sense Effect +1 Area Effect +2 Obvious Effect -2 Directly Resisted by Target -1 Again, as with combat spells, only one line of spells does not fit this mold: Phantasm/Trid Phantasm. Their drain should be 1 point higher, and when compared to the similar-yet-weaker spells Hush/Silence, which have the same drain, this makes sense. |
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Dec 14 2005, 04:33 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I wonder if some spells were given a fudge factor. For instance, it's been suggested elsewhere on this forum that Clout is undesirable due to the way spell mechanics work out; maybe the discount is in there to help make up for that.
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Dec 14 2005, 08:00 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Possibly. Clout should have a lower drain, it seems, especially when compared to a spell like Stunbolt, which essentially does the same thing while completely ypassing armor. In fact, clout is the only indirect combat spell without elemental effect. |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:26 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Perhaps Indirect should have no modifiers, and Elemental should have +2?
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Dec 14 2005, 08:30 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
I think I've figured out the Health spells.
Base Spell: Mana Type (+0), Touch Range (-1), Permanent Duration (+1), DV F/2 MODIFIERS: Physical Type +1 Voluntary Subject -2 Symptoms Only -2 Sustained Duration (+1, same as permenent) Affects Initiative +1 This works for all the Health Spells Except Hibernate and Increase Attribute, both of which should have DV 1 point higher than listed. I guess Hibernate's might be lower because it only have a somewhat minor, non-healing effect. As for Increase Attribute, I'm not sure from where that additional -1 comes. I can think of different modifiers that would raise DECREASE attribute, but not increase. |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:35 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
That works quite well, actually. Good call! But something about it still just does not feel right. From a balance-of-power perspective, it would make sense for an Indirect spell to have less drain than a direct one, because you're skimping on the armor-bypassing power. Stunbolt bypasses the armor and hits then with stum damage, yet has LESS drain than clout, which doesn't bypass the armor? Just seems... weird... |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:36 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The following modifiers seem to work: Physical Type +1 Stun Damage -1 Touch Range -2 Area Effect +2 Elemental Effect +2 Acid Stream, Flamethrower, Lightning Bolt (Physical Type, Elemental Effect) +3 Toxic Wave, Fireball, Ball Lightning (Physical Type, Area Effect, Elemental Effect) +5 Punch (Physical Type, Touch Range, Stun Damage) -2 Clout (Physical Type, Stun Damage) +0 Blast (Physical Type, Stun Damage, Area Effect) +2 Death Touch (Touch Range) -2 Manabolt (no mods) +0 Manaball (Area Effect) +2 Shatter (Physical Type, Touch Range) -1 Powerbolt (Physical Type) +1 Powerball (Physical Type, Area Effect) +3 Knockout (Touch Range, Stun Damage) -3 Stunbolt (Stun Damage) -1 Stunball (Stun Damage, Area Effect) +1 |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:46 PM
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#11
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
just out of curiosity, are you beginning with the spell design from MItS? or are you starting from complete scratch?
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Dec 14 2005, 08:49 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I agree, it does seem weird. I suppose the tradeoff is that the listed Indirects (since they're all Physical type) can be used against nonliving targets and Counterspelling is used to soak rather than avoid the damage. |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:50 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Both, actually. I understand that the SR3 system is incompatible due to the change in drain and the different minor systems introduced in spells and labelling in SR4, but it does provide a good frame of reference, in showing what aspects of spells affect the way they are cast. Mostly, though, I'm cross-referencing common descriptors and figuring our their relations. |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:52 PM
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#14
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Direct spells are generally easier to resist because they only cause damage if the caster has at least one net success against the target's attribute+counterspelling. Indirect spells are treated as ranged attacks, meaning that the target has to stage down all of their damage if it fails to dodge. If the spell is area effect indirect then the target doesn't even have a chance to dodge. When faced with high attributes and/or high counterspelling, area effect indirect is best. |
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Dec 14 2005, 08:53 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Well, look at Powerbolt. It's physical, and affects nonliving targets, bypasses armor, does physical damange, and only has a +1 code higher than Clout. That Clout spell, the more I look at it, is getting more and more worthless. |
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Dec 14 2005, 09:04 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Hrm. Maybe the choice between Stunbolt and Clout is more like the decision to have Counterspelling (if present) used in the resistance test or the soak test.
Even so, you're looking at Clout -- like all Indirects -- having four die sets employable to counter it (Reaction, Body, half Impact, Counterspelling) as opposed to the Directs with just two (Body or Willpower, Counterspelling). Oh, and Indirects don't have to deal with object resistance thresholds. Forgot that bit. But hey, what drone or vehicle cares about Stun damage? :P Did we ever come to a consensus on called shots and Indirects? Right, so I guess at best Clout is for unarmored living objects that can't defend with Reaction (unaware or immobile) and don't have available Counterspelling. Like, say, a potted plant. |
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Dec 15 2005, 01:46 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 28-October 02 Member No.: 3,512 |
Wow. I had been trying to reverse=engineer firearms, but I haven't been anywhere near as successful. I certainly am very interested and grateful for this analysis.
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Dec 15 2005, 02:00 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
At the moment, I haven't really even had the notion to do so with firearms. I'm currently running the Shadowrun system in a fantasy-with-firearms setting (The Iron Kingdoms), and I'm trying to figure out how to allow a more fantasy-specific array of spells, while keeping them balanced with the rest of the system. The formulae deduced here for Combat, Health, and Illusion spells have so far allowed me to port in some DnD-like spells, and so far the conversions are pretty balanced with the rest of the gamut. Detection and Manipulation spells are still a bit confusing to me, though. On the firearms note, I don't know if reverse-engineering them will work that well. In all previous editions, stock firearms were not created with the firearms creation rules, and attempts to approximate them were usually way off in nuyen costs. Although, I would definitely like to see some Dice Pool mods and a good firearm creation system. |
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Dec 15 2005, 02:32 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Regarding Detection spells, I might stand corrected. I think I'm seeing more of a basic pattern.
Looking only at the "Detect XX" spells, here's that I think might be going on: BASE: Type Mana (+0), Touch Range (-1), Sustained Duration (+1), DV: F/2 MODIFIERS: Physical Spell +1 Area +2 Restricted Target -2 (life, magic, etc) Very Restricted -3 (specific life form, specific person, specific type of object) Actually, I could be wrong here. Detect Enemies and Detect Object don't fit this formula right. Not sure how Detect Enemies was calculated, but Detect Object, if calculated the same as Detect Life Form, should have an additional +1 to its DV for being a physical spell, unless Detection Spells don't care about Mana/Physical types. If that were the case, I would go further and break down the Analyze/Clairsentient spells (the first four on p. 198): Touch (-1), Sustained (+1) = DV F/2 Passive -1 (simple extension of sense, no additional insight gleamed) Should all of thise hold true, the ones I am still at a loss to explain are Combat Sense, Detect Enemies, Mindlink, and Mind probe. I would assume Detect Enemies would be the same as Detect Life Form, as you're scanning for only a specific target. Mindlink is Voluntary, so I would place it's base drain at F/2 -2, but there are other factors working to raise that Drain three whole points. Perhaps the "Psychic" descriptor adds +2, which would explain Combat Sense, but I'm not sure where mindlink gets the additional +1. Mind Probe, by its description, sounds like it qualifies for the "Psychic" descriptor, and thus it's Drain Value calculates smoothly. God I want that new Magic sourcebook! ... So, in short: Detection Spells BASE SPELL: Mana Type (+0), Touch Range (-1), Sustained Duration (+1), Directional Descriptor, DV: F/2 MODIFIERS: Passive -1 Physical: No Modifier! Restricted Target -2 (life, magic, etc) Area +2 Very Restricted -3 (specific life form, specific person, specific type of object) Extended +2 Psychic +2 EXCEPTIONS: Detect Enemies (listed DV should be 2 less), Mindlink (listed DV should be 1 less) EDIT: Perhaps Mindlink has that additional +1 DV because it allows two characters (caster and subject) to equally benefit from the spell, without actually being an area spell? |
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Dec 15 2005, 02:51 AM
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#20
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Dont expect too much IIRC, MiTS doesnt hold all of the sr3 spells to it's designs either. |
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Dec 15 2005, 03:07 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 28-October 02 Member No.: 3,512 |
Not to get off-topic, but you are correct, they just use what sounds right, but, I have found some there are still some general assuption that can be made about a working system; something to tide my newly formed group over until we can get whatever sb that deals with it. On a more topical note, does anyone know about the legality of converting older sr material? I mean, it is one thing to say, replace "x" line, with "y", but what about using snipets of the actual texts? Is that a big no-no for (free) distribution? I mean, I am certain we all want to know how to do a Punch Test in SR4... Will I, or you, really need to rewrite everything applying to a basic conversion? Is Design Point Value a copywrited term? Does anyone one know what kind of rules we chould adhere too? The reason this presses me is that, like many of you , I have a library of SR rulebooks from SR1-3 (literally every single book printed in English and a few in German I can barely read). So many of those rules/concepts became in intregal part of how I play and understand Shadowrun that I have been picking through the things I cannot live without to mark for conversion. Spell design was on my list, but you guys are doing a bang-up job so far. If anyone is working on Adept powers, please post something! |
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Dec 15 2005, 03:38 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Working on Manipulation spells, and sheesh this is tough. Starting with the back page...
Poltergeist (+3 DV) gets a +1 for sustained, a +1 for physical type, a +2 for area effect, and what... -1 for Environmental? Shadow (+1 DV) gets +1 for physical type, +2 for area, +1 for sustained... so why a DV of only +1? Shapechange (+2 DV) gets a +1 for physical type, +1 for sustained, -2 for voluntary subject... and perhaps is finished with a +2 for, say, Major Physical Change? Turn to Goo (+2 DV) gets a +1 for physical type, +1 for sustained, but there's gotta be other affecting variables here. Petrify (+2 DV) gets a +1 for physical type, +1 for sustained... Mana Barrier (+1 DV), gets a +2 for area effect, +1 for sustained, yet the DV is two points less? Physical Barrier (+3 DV) does the same as Mana Barrier but on the physical plane, yet a whole two points higher in DV? Light (-1 DV) gets +1 for Physical, +2 for area effect, and +1 for sustained, yet its DV is five points lower than that total. These just don't make any sense to me. All I can think of when looking at new manipulation spells is "call it like you see it" and the like. |
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Dec 15 2005, 04:09 AM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I think the key on Detect Enemies is that it detects living creatures that have hostile intentions. So it's an extra level of discernment on Detect Life. That little piece of discernment is worth +2 Drain (and rather easily). Combat Sense sees the frickin future, and merely having a bonus drain code from that is being mighty generous. -Frank |
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Dec 15 2005, 04:16 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
I think the different in Drain there, for mechanics purposes, is still too big. Detect Life Form finds all instances of one particular life form within it's range, regardless of intent. Detect Enemies finds all living creatures that have a specific intent to do you harm, and has many ifs and ands. If anything, because of it's much more pressing limitations, I'd give it a LOWER drain. But that's beside the point. I'm trying to deduce the specific variables at play here. "We think it should be higher" is not a good enough variable for a balanced numerical system, and didn't appear as one in any of the prior spell design formulae. I think the Combat Sense drain increase would be summed up by the "Psychic" descriptor - meaning it allows an additional sense/insight that is not normally possessed by the character. In SR3 that is the "Provides a new sense" descriptor, and sets the Drain at Deadly. From a lot of these deductions and com parisons, I'm beginning to think that most of the base damage and drain levels of SR4 can be roughly based (aka eyeballed) around Medium damage in SR3, then modded up and down. |
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Dec 15 2005, 05:15 AM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I don't want to get overly bogged down in senseless debate as you are doing good work. But I would point out that actually "We think it should be higher" appeared in every previous version of the spell design formulae. But the Grimoire said it best:
-Frank |
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