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> GM asking for advice for SR3e, How to balance Riggers?
Mardegun
post Dec 15 2005, 03:19 PM
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Up until now the rigger in my game was just the group's driver. He is starting to change his character to become what I suggest in the beginning, a drone rigger. My question is how do I balance my "average powered" game with a drone with 5+ armor? I really don't want to have NPCs with AV, Heavy weapons, casting lighting spells every week. I want a fairly low powered game with above average powered characters.

Here are the things going against the PC

1. The rigger will use most of his cash to buy his first combat drone.
2. As a result he won't have much money when it and the team vehicle have to be repaired.
3. Besides a car skill he has to learn vector thrust, so his skill will be low.
4. Besides pistols he has no other weapon skills. Although all he needs is a gunnery skill right? … seem a bit broken that all you need to know is one skill to fire ALL the weapons in the world, but anyway.
5. He has a only has a B/R electronics skill … I let him have a B/R skill since he is a mechanic. So I can learn the electronic warfare rules and he will have to relay on other PC so stop jamming.

I know he has a long ways to go before he is a powerhouse, but as soon as he gets a drone (armor 5+) and some skill, he is going to be hard to stop. While I know I can figure out reasonable ways to slow him down, what are you guys suggestions?
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Velocity
post Dec 15 2005, 03:29 PM
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Just ensure that combat isn't the only way your PCs are challenged: puzzles, mysteries, fear of betrayal, tricky social/corporate politics and high-stealth runs are all excellent ways to make your players sweat -- and the thickest armour and biggest guns in the world can't help them.
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Fix-it
post Dec 15 2005, 03:37 PM
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The Star. End of story.

The Star doesn't like it when drone riggers take thier shiny new toys for a test ride down city streets. They have riggers of thier own with shiny toys as well, (Lonestar strato-9)

So throw in 3-way fights if the drones come out and it takes too long.
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mmu1
post Dec 15 2005, 04:10 PM
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What sort of VRC does he have? If it's 2 or 3, don't count on low skills slowing him down very much - a 2 means you break even, and a 3 means you're actually at -2 TN when just defaulting to Reaction.
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Pendaric
post Dec 15 2005, 04:16 PM
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A one shot spanner in the works, would be a "hot mike" jammer in the opposition's hands. Dirty, non specific and effective. It would encourage cash drain from the player/s for some ECM equipment, which you then can choose to be useful or not dependant on style.
Avoiding sorcery, there's conjuring? Spirits can be very effective especially against ariel vehicles.
Rotor drones are a good option to guide the character to choosing, the rotors giving a accessible weakness that can be hit for dramatic effect. A hard shot but not unbelievable with enough lead in the air.
Same thing for AV's, grenades being sucked into air intakes (all it needs is a lot of luck or one guard with a grenade link). The solvent on hand grenades is useful to for the same reason.
Caltrops and stinger strips for wheeled vehicles. Mines are a viable option in some cases.
Slip spray and riot foam are great for comic drone nullification. Acid gel rounds are good on personal and 'eventually' vehicles. Combine with normal munitions they can be devastating.
Dobermans and lynx's are heavy duty hence feel no compunction to use heavy duty weapons against them, grenades under them though have a good chance of taking out the tracks and some times the vehicle. (Count the floor as a wall :D)

Rigging can often fall in the same area as the other specialists, some times you just need one on the opposition side to balance the scales. :vegm:
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noname_hero
post Dec 15 2005, 04:48 PM
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How about starting slowly, with some cheaper and less tough drones?
Convince him to use miniblimps, microskimmers, cheap wheeled drones, light roto-drones... All these can provide a lot of real-time intelligence for the rest of the team, some of them can provide light fire support, and they're a lot cheaper than the heavy drones.

Explain to him that quite often he will not be able to salvage a disabled drone nad that the closer his drones are to military-grade the more deadly will be the force they will encounter. Explain that the sky over the 'plex is full of microskimmers, and nobody gives a damn, but a Steel Lynx armed with a HGM is a *sure* way to attract unwanted attention of the deadly kind. Heavy-duty drones tend to attract serious firepower, and when one is lost, it will cost the rigger a lot of nuyen to replace it.

There's *always* somebody with bigger'n'better toys, and a part of being a sensible runner is knowing not to provoke an armed response one is a poor match for, especially if defeating such forces gains him no benefit. Remind him that most sammies (who could use rocket launchers and other heavy weapons) tend to go for small arms for a reason.

Lone Star, corps, FBI, the military... All these will put a *lot* of effort to stop a "madman" who uses armed security-grade drones, but a guy with a miniblimp is just another nosy kid with a VCR...
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Syd
post Dec 15 2005, 09:54 PM
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If the PCs are fighting some half-baked buffins, I generally just let them get creamed. They would've walked through opposition like that anyway.

If the PCs are fighting a group that is expecting Shadowrunners (like say the Renraku samurai), then it's Standard Operating Procedure to have some degree of anti-vehicular protection. Corps like to be cost-effective, so that generally translates to one guy in a squad having a clip of AV ammo. If some intruders show up with a drone or two, he loads it up while the others take cover. If a corp has a combat mage for security reasons, it's pretty damn likely he'll know lightning.

Any shadowrun team with the means will have _something_ to take out drones, be it a rocket, AV ammo or a lightning spell. Stands to reason that a decently equipped anti-shadowrun team would as well.

It usually works pretty good...my PCs take lots of steps to have the jump on the baddies as often as possible, so the baddies (typically) only get a few shots off at the drone before going down. The rigger deals with a moderate wound (costing a few thou to fix), and I'm happy with the balance. When the rigger gets too cocky (wading his armored ass fearlessly into a morass of baddies), the drone gets ganked.

Also, the baddies (without AV) can use called shots to avoid armor: they target the thrusters or wheels or whatever. The power of the attack is still halved, but there's a chance that some damage will happen.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 16 2005, 01:27 AM
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If he's going with a vectored-thrust drone, don't worry about it. He won't be able to use it enough to make it worth considering.

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SL James
post Dec 16 2005, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (Mardegun)
Up until now the rigger in my game was just the group's driver. He is starting to change his character to become what I suggest in the beginning, a drone rigger. My question is how do I balance my "average powered" game with a drone with 5+ armor?

First thing you do is go over that drone with a fine-tooth comb, cover every single design point and check the errata. I blew up at a player this weekend (we are still not talking to each other) over what started as a mistake due to the horrible mess that is Rigger 3 (seriously, who edited it? A retarded monkey?) and ended up with both of us blowing up at each other and taking most of the group with us (we all GM, so all sorts of runs are now FUBAR because of a goddamn typo).

Other than that, I agree with Kage. But also, getting multiple small drones (which is what my drone rigger has done. He has this whole spider motif going using them for spying, signal boosting, anti-personnel stuff, etc.)

But other than that, one combat drone is about as useful as one combat monster troll. Sure, it's great to have when things go loud, but in my games if they went loud then we failed miserably.
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Ed_209a
post Dec 16 2005, 05:16 AM
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The biggest control for using expensive gear, is that people can see you with expensive gear, and might want _your_ expensive gear as _their_ expensive gear.
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RunnerPaul
post Dec 16 2005, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
the horrible mess that is Rigger 3 (seriously, who edited it? A retarded monkey?)

A editor who knew that FASA was going to be closing up shop, wasn't sure if the game line was going to have a future, and wanted to be absolutely sure the last of the "Core Archetype Splatbooks" made it to the shelves so that if it did turn out to be the last SR product ever published, at least third edition would have had a full set of splatbooks.

Needless to say, it was a bit of a rush job. R3 Revised took care of some of the problems, but it could only do so much.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 16 2005, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE (SL James)
But other than that, one combat drone is about as useful as one combat monster troll.

Not totally true—if you go heavy enough the drone will always outgun and outsoak the troll—but vectored-thrust and fixed-wing drones have some crippling limitations for shadow combat use. For vectored-thrust, they're hot, their signature hangs out with 0, and they burn fuel like nobody's business. For fixed-wing, the whole "not being able to stop and hang out in a good position for a while" thing is pretty harsh. I'm a fan of rotodrones and miniblimps, myself.

~J
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SL James
post Dec 16 2005, 11:42 AM
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Touche, Kage. Touche.
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Mardegun
post Dec 16 2005, 05:06 PM
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Velocity quote
QUOTE
Just ensure that combat isn't the only way your PCs are challenged:

No worries there, there is more to my game than combat.

Fix-it quote
QUOTE
The Star. End of story.

The players are not dumb enough to make their equipment known to the cops, but I will remind myself to do more random pull over's.

All in all I am not that keen on the cops getting involved that much. My players have already experience the wrath of the cops. If the cops get involved then the PCs have screwed up. Assuming the group doesn't mess up, then star shouldn't be much of a factor.

Mmu1
QUOTE
What sort of VRC does he have?"

I let him have a VCR3 of course. :-/

Pendaric
QUOTE
Spirits can be very effective especially against ariel vehicles.

While I am pretty familiar with the magic rules, I am not sure how effective spirits are against drones. Assuming we are talking about reasonable powered spirits of 3 or 4, what can they do? They are too weak to attack them physically and most of the powers do stun ... So can you explain how they can be effective?

noname_hero
QUOTE
How about starting slowly, with some cheaper and less tough drones?


Thanks for the suggestion, but I am not going to tell him how to play his character. I want to allow him to do his own thing. I feel it is more responsibility to raise to the challenge.

QUOTE
There's *always* somebody with bigger'n'better toys

I mean no offense, but this is the kind of philosophy I am trying to avoid. Don't get me wrong, I know how squash the rigger and the whole group like bugs, but I want to take a more grounded and elegant approach. Also keep in mind that the rigger isn't a madman. He hasn't done anything wrong ... I am simply looking to the future to provide a reasonable challenge.

I find it reasonable for him to have his equipment, so I don't want to punish him by throwing a lot of high power enemies his way.

Syd
QUOTE
If the PCs are fighting some half-baked buffins, I generally just let them get creamed. They would've walked through opposition like that anyway.

Thanks for the reminder sometimes I need to remember that a tough challenge all of the time isn't always fun.

QUOTE
If a corp has a combat mage for security reasons, it's pretty damn likely he'll know lightning.

I am having a hard time thinking of any other spells that are goint to be simple and effective against drones. The problem is I don't want to make all my npcs gear to stop the rigger. And since the npcs are less powerful in general, my NPCs mages only have a few spells ... I suppose I just need to do some more studying with drones in mind.

QUOTE
If the PCs are fighting a group that is expecting Shadowrunners...

I am not worried about professional NPCs. In fact the PCs just went up against some Spirit Company security and lost. The security slowed them down enough for the cops to surround the place. Only the sniper was able to get away after a car chase.

Kagetenshi
QUOTE
If he's going with a vectored-thrust drone, don't worry about it. He won't be able to use it enough to make it worth considering.

Can you explain a little more on this?

Ed_209a
QUOTE
The biggest control for using expensive gear, is that people can see you with expensive gear, and might want _your_ expensive gear as _their_ expensive gear.


Nice point, I will try to have ganger and other confront them when they are gearing up.


Thanks again guys for the comments, they are some real good one here. If you could please answer some of the questions I asked. For example the important ones are ...

1. Can people give me more examples of how spirits can be effective against drones?
2. Why isn't vector thrust that good? This this because of the lack of drones?
3. What are some common problems with drones. Environment problems for example.
4. How do you guys did with fuel? I have completely avoid the issue, but I might have to start making this mundane aspect of the game more important.
5. Besides lighting any other spells that would be good? ... Assuming that they are too creatively used. I don't want the NPCs to be more creative then the pcs.
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mmu1
post Dec 16 2005, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mardegun)
Thanks again guys for the comments, they are some real good one here. If you could please answer some of the questions I asked. For example the important ones are ...

1. Can people give me more examples of how spirits can be effective against drones?
2. Why isn't vector thrust that good? This this because of the lack of drones?
3. What are some common problems with drones. Environment problems for example.
4. How do you guys did with fuel? I have completely avoid the issue, but I might have to start making this mundane aspect of the game more important.
5. Besides lighting any other spells that would be good? ... Assuming that they are too creatively used. I don't want the NPCs to be more creative then the pcs.

1. I'm pretty sure there are some spirit powers that can be used fairly effectively against drones - Accident comes to mind.

2. Like Kagetenshi said - not especially subtle, hard to use inside buildings. Though you didn't say what you meant by vector thrust, so maybe this is just a misunerstanding over terminology.

3. Any cramped space is going to be a problem - so will be such simple things as doors. There's also a lot of places - basically, anywhere aside from the bad neighborhoods - where an armed drone flying at low level is going to attract negative attention. So you need to be judicious in their use - it's usually best if they loiter at a high altitude to have a good field of view and avoid detection, which means it sometimes takes time for them to get into the action.

4. There are a lot of drones that can be owned and used legally, so I'm sure there are plenty of places that will sell you fuel without a hassle. It's not really a major issue, most of the time.
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The Stainless St...
post Dec 16 2005, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Mardegun)
5. Besides lighting any other spells that would be good? ... Assuming that they are too creatively used. I don't want the NPCs to be more creative then the pcs.

Just about any Physical Combat spell or Elemental Manipulation... Physical Illusion spells can f**k with their sensors...

Why don't you want creative NPCs? Just curious.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Dec 16 2005, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mardegun)
1. Can people give me more examples of how spirits can be effective against drones?
Accident, immunity to normal weapons, movement, engulf.
QUOTE
2. Why isn't vector thrust that good?  This this because of the lack of drones?
Actually, I'd suggest looking at the Ares Guardian. A slowly flying wall with a small gun port.
QUOTE
3. What are some common problems with drones.  Environment problems for example.
Depends on the mobility method of the drone. Fixed wings have trouble in tight hallways with right angles, tracked have trouble on cliffs, etc.
QUOTE
4. How do you guys did with fuel?  I have completely avoid the issue, but I might have to start making this mundane aspect of the game more important.
See tank size vs. economy for single use duration. I'd toss it in with the maintenance costs unless the drone needs to be recharged/refueled on a run.
QUOTE
5. Besides lighting any other spells that would be good? ... Assuming that they are too creatively used.  I don't want the NPCs to be more creative then the pcs.
Shape earth, ice sheet, most elemental manipulations, a high force physical barrier used to odd effect. Basically, any physical spell with a TN other than OR or Body (or 4+mass).
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Taran
post Dec 16 2005, 09:20 PM
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If your interpretation of the Concealment power is that it adds to the subject's Signature for sensor-enhanced gunnery, then it can be astonishingly effective against combative riggers (and will sometimes foil people who rely on the van's sensors without ever looking out the window). This is a point about which reasonable people can disagree, though.

Similarly, think about how Improved Invisibility interacts with vehicle sensors, keeping in mind that vehicles have ultrasound and thermographic capability.

Lightning spells are surprisingly ineffective against a drone with a rigger inside. The rigger can use her substantial control pool to dodge, and while your mage is looking for 4s to hit, the rigger is looking for her handling, with VCR mods, to dodge. So unless the rigger takes deadly physical damage somewhere along the line and winds up with serious wound mods, she's almost certainly looking for 2s. Several mages, or one who manages to get several casts off without getting geeked, could drain the rigger's pool down far enough to make a difference, I suppose.
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mmu1
post Dec 16 2005, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Taran)
Lightning spells are surprisingly ineffective against a drone with a rigger inside. The rigger can use her substantial control pool to dodge, and while your mage is looking for 4s to hit, the rigger is looking for her handling, with VCR mods, to dodge. So unless the rigger takes deadly physical damage somewhere along the line and winds up with serious wound mods, she's almost certainly looking for 2s.

But that kind of stuff hardly ever happens. That would be GM sadism. ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 16 2005, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (Taran)
So unless the rigger takes deadly physical damage somewhere along the line and winds up with serious wound mods, she's almost certainly looking for 2s.

*Looks innocent*

~J
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Starfurie
post Dec 17 2005, 02:01 AM
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I can take out any rigger who gets cocky with two Azzie Hedgehogs and an elemental. The Hedgehogs triangulate the location of the rigger's vehicle and the elemental engulfs the rigger. (Riggers who stage though a relay are smart, not cocky.)

As for limiting the effectiveness of the drones: Interior stariwells.

Also note if he has anti=air turrents. If not, balconys are dangerous to drive uinder.

Oh, hallways ALWAYS count as tight terrain. Make those control rolls.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 17 2005, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (Starfurie)
I can take out any rigger who gets cocky with two Azzie Hedgehogs[…]

You can also do it with AV HMG rounds. Sure, the availability is higher, but you'll spend a whole hell of a lot less money to do it.

~J
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jervinator
post Dec 17 2005, 02:05 PM
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Personally, my players are too busy dealing with things that no amount of hardware, no matter HOW shiny, can really help.
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TheNarrator
post Dec 17 2005, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Actually, I'd suggest looking at the Ares Guardian. A slowly flying wall with a small gun port

I can't comment on other vector thrust drones, but the Ares Guardian is a good pick in my experience, and I've been in two campaigns that involved an Ares Guardian, one where I was the rigger and one where I wasn't.

The Guardian comes with a mini-turret, which is enough to mount an HMG.

The "slow-flying wall" part is true, however. The Guardian's speed is only 60 but it has Armor 12, which with vehicle armor means that anything that isn't AV isn't going to penetrate. Of course, Speed 60 is plenty if you're using it against people rather than vehicles. The description makes note of the fact that it's small enough to use indoors, and with vector thrust it can go over any sort of obstacles or up stairs.

The downside? Even with noise cancellation (which I assume is built into its Signature 7) it won't be terribly quiet, so it's no good for a stealth op. Once you bring an Ares Guardian into play, all semblance of "subtle" goes out the window. And a Load of 24 means you may need to spring for engine customization just to be able to carry the recoil adjusters for it's weapon. And it can't be mounted with manipulator arms of any sort, so it can't do much solo except fight: no opening doors or downloading paydata. Even if the rigger's drone isn't threatened, you may still make him sweat bullets by being a threat to his fleshy compatriots. (At least, that's what happened to me on a few occassions.)


An alternate drone option that I've been having fun with is the G.M. Mr. Fix-It. It comes with manipulator arms, so your rigger can rewire gizmos without having to be there in the meat. It doesn't have armor, but you can buy armor and mount it. It's inexpensive (27,000:nuyen: with a Street index of 1, vs. 99,000:nuyen: and SI 2 for the Guardian) and easy to find and even comes with one free Build/Repair autosoft. But it's tracked, so you lose the advantage of being airborne, and even with maximum engine customization it will never be fast from a vehicle standpoint. But for something to move in concert with your meat-body teammates (and maybe even carry the meat body of an astralling mage, decking decker or rigging rigger strapped ot its back) it'll do fine.


As for countering drones, it's totally doable. I play a street sam in Syd's campaign, and our rigger just had his Ares Guardian shot down by two bursts of AV ammo from the submachine gun of a Renraku Security Guard. (Of course, I turned right around and used two bursts of AV ammo to destroy one of Deus' super-freaky drones, so turnabout is fair play.) AV ammo is good for threatening a drone... perhaps even too good. With their armor halved, a drone's Body of 2 makes it pretty killable. Since it can pretty frustrating to lose a 100,000:nuyen: piece of equipment to 500:nuyen: worth of ammo, I'd advise not bringing it out in every fight unless you enjoy the sound of your rigger's player getting frustrated. But it definitely stands to reason that, just as the PCs will try to have something on-hand to deal with vehicles, NPCs of equivalent power will as well. A drone is hardly invincible, and there's plenty of times I would have risked losing my Ares Guardian if we hadn't used deviousness and tactics to get the jump on the opposition.

QUOTE (Mardegun @ Dec 15 2005, 09:19 AM)
4. Besides pistols he has no other weapon skills. Although all he needs is a gunnery skill right? … seem a bit broken that all you need to know is one skill to fire ALL the weapons in the world, but anyway.

It actually makes sense when you consider that those weapons are all being operated remotely. He's using a mouse or joystick (or a rigger's cyberware interface) to aim a crosshair like a player in an FPS game, and never lays hands on the physical weapon at all. For him, aiming a pistol is the same as aiming an assault cannon, just like aiming the pistol in DOOM is the same as aiming the B.F.G.

Having a decent gunnery skill is going to cost him a fair bit of Karma, so until he's got about 8 to 14 Karma to spend, his drone isn't going to be doing much damage. And while he can default almost any vehicle skill to Reaction and still do fine, he won't get his control pool to those checks until he buys some Vector Thrust Aircraft skill. He's quite a bit of Karma away from being an airborne death machine.


QUOTE (Taran @ Dec 16 2005, 05:20 PM)
Lightning spells are surprisingly ineffective against a drone with a rigger inside.  The rigger can use her substantial control pool to dodge, and while your mage is looking for 4s to hit, the rigger is looking for her handling, with VCR mods, to dodge.  So unless the rigger takes deadly physical damage somewhere along the line and winds up with serious wound mods, she's almost certainly looking for 2s.

They do? Aw, crap. We've just been rolling vs. TN 4 plus wound mods for drone dodging in the campaigns I've been in, and we'd have some less damaged drones if we'd realized it was vs. TN Handling. Our rigger might not have had his Guardian sunk on Monday if his TN had been just that tiny bit lower.

But still, don't underestimate the effectiveness of lightning. The rigger only has control pool (however substantial) to dodge. The mage has Sorcery plus spell pool. That's enough dice to make the difference.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 18 2005, 03:27 AM
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For reference, my current character's Control Pool is 13 dice large, and I never need to spend any of it on drain.

~J
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