Armament of UCAS/CAS Soldiers in 2070, XM30, Ares Alpha or Something Else? Options

[Omer Joel]

The XM30 described in SR4 reminds me of several RL designs examined as "future trooper" weapons by the USA Army, and even look much like the RL XM8 while being more similar to the XM-29 OICW. On the other hand, Ares might have a tighter grip on the Washington/Atlanta decision-makers than HK (being deeply involved in the North American military industry and in the Chicago debacle of the late 2050's), and push their excellent Ares Alpha as the standard-issue arm of the UCAS and CAS forces.

So, what personal weapons - Pistols, SMGs (if any), Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and LMGs should the UCAS and CAS Armies and Marines use in 2070?

[FrostyNSO]

Well, as of 2064, I have them using the M23 and Browning Max-Power.

[MYST1C]

Well, IIRC Street Samurai Catalogue and Fields of Fire (early to mid 2050s) presented the Steyr AUG CSL as the CAS military's assault rifle while the UCAS used the Colt M22A2 and M23 for regular troops and the Ares Alpha for Special Forces.

IRL militaries don't change guns often.
The M1911 was only replaced by the M9 after ~70 years.
The M16 has been used since the early 1960s (and now the XM8 has been cancelled while the SCAR is planned only for Special Forces use).
In Germany the G3 was used for almost 40 years before replacement with the G36 began.

[bclements]

The Walther MA-2100 is listed as the sniper rifle of choice in the CAS in both CC and SR4. I'd agree with My$t1c (just don't want to type out the symbol ;) ) that it probably hasn't changed much since the 2050's on the grunt end.

[FrostyNSO]

Basically, the military is going to try for the most bang for their buck as far as the "average" soldier (i don't think an "average" soldier exists) is concerned. The gummint doesn't have unlimited cash. Kindof on that note, I doubt military planners would see much need for every soldier to have an underbarrel grenade launcher.

Special Forces and other elite units are going to use the tool best suited to the job based upon the specifics of the mission. Usually cost won't be an issue so much as availability. SF soldiers have stepped into the field carrying Ak-47's on more than one occasion not because there wasn't anything better, but because ammunition would be easier to find in the field. Obviously, this isn't an issue in the world of SR since all AR's appearantly use the same type of ammunition ;)

[FlakJacket]

Since as Frosty said cost is important, I figure the average platoon would be made up of guys carrying M-23's with the grenadiers having an added grenade launcher but none of the other bells and whistles like Gasvent or scopes the M22A2 carries. For the SAW's the only two canon choices are the Ingram Valiant and Ares MP-LMG. The Ingram is slightly heavier but seven hundred nuyen a unit cheaper, so unless Ares uses its influence - although for all we know they also own Ingram - I'd see the DoD taking the Valiant.

[Ed_209a]

In my game, the US Army will be picking a new AR in the next 5 years, 2010, say, then going right through to the M23 in the 2050s. That should take them well past the SR4 era.

[Omer Joel]

Thanks for your help!

So far, this is what I'm leaning towards:
- Armor: Camoflage Suit.
- "Grunt" (i.e. non-SF) Assault Rifle: Colt M23 (using NightmareX's conversion from Cannon Companion).
- One "Grunt" per Fireteam: M23 + Underbarrel Grenade Launcher.
- SAW: Ingram Valiant X (or whatever its called in SR4, I don't have the book next to me right now).
- Service Pistol (Officers? Non-combatants? Vehicle crews?): Ares Predator (VI?).
- Special Forces Assault Rifle: Ares Alpha.
- PDW/SMG: HK-227X? HK MP5X?

[stevebugge]

My understanding is that the Spec. Ops. guys would actually choose their weapons from mission to mission based on the Who, What, When, Where criteria, so I would just use the standard charater generation availability rules and a fixed budget for them. Your basic Infatry Equipment looks good, though I would probably go with a Light Pistol (maybe the Colt America) rather than a heavy, except for MP units (from what I understand the army is issued a 9mm now, and only MP's are allowed to carry the M1911A1)

[Lord Ben]

Personally I see Armies going more and more towards todays model of better, not bigger armies. So I see them all equipped with Ares - with a variety of grenade types throughout the unit.

Definately they'd have smartlinks, audio and visual magnification. I'd have each squad in an APC, probably a citymaster for mechanics purposes. In the CM is the 2 or 3 man crew of the vehicle. A rigger/driver, a rigger/gunner both of whom can run drones and some sort of "hacker" type only with mostly anti-hacker skills.

The job of the squad would be to close with and destroy the enemy whlie the people in the citymaster provide recon, backup heavy firepower, and defend the wireless network.

[BetaFlame]

The UCAS in the Shadowrun world I run is equipped by Ares almost exclusively.

Sure, the gun might have the STATS of an Ingram White Knight, but it has a big ass "Ares" logo branded into the pistol grip.

The CAS is a little more discriminating, and refused an exclusive contract for better prices.

[stevebugge]

IIRC, Colt is an Ares brand. Also I would tend to agree with Ben's Mechanized Infantry model, though a variety of vehicles could be employed Citymasters, Devil Rat APC's, ARes Dragon Helicopters, T-Birds. Also keep in mind that Artillery or Air support may be available and probably at the behest of a field spotter, who would most likely be a hacker with slightly diminished weapons skills to make room for some electronic warfare skills. This hacker may have some drone piloting skills as well as access to the vehicle teams network.

[Critias]

[Squinky]

Wouldn't training and employment costs far outweigh those equipment costs? Hell yes.

I could see them all having that nice gear, because it isn't that expensive, and you can be sure they get a discount for buying in bulk.

I'd have a harder time seeing them affording the ammo for the guns, since in Sr4 you can buy a gun for 500 bucks and spend 1k on ammo for it.

[Lord Ben]

3500 for a helmet with all the vision and audio enhancements.
19000 for a fully modified full body combat suit.
4000 for an Ares Alpha with ammo/grenades and a backup pistol.
Figure 8500 for a nice commlink with a great signal rating and basic other gear like med kit, stim patches, etc.
-------------
35,000 per soldier x 12 soldiers in a Citymaster = 420,000.

A stock citymaster is 50,000. Maybe add 30,000 worth of mods/weapons to it.

Add in 3 specialists for driving, shooting, and running the network. Mostly they'll have survielance drones, but they'll probably have a lot of programs at a high ranking. Figure 500k worth of programs, recon drones, and maybe cyberware (control rig especially). The backup riggers should have their own programs to back up the hacker same as the hacker can back up the rigger.

That's 1 million for a team of 15 people inside an APC. A stock cost now IRL for an M2 Bradley is around 1.5 million and that's just the vehicle.

So yeah, I DO think that they'll have all that equipment. Equipment is cheap, training soldiers to use it is much harder.

[nick012000]

I remember in one old SR novel that that was pretty much the way things were described for the UCAS military. Can't remember the name of the novel, though I can remember that the plot was about a plot between a few members of the UCAS brass and the CAS brass to... do something. I remember that there was a shadowrunner wannabe rigger/decker that became a real shadowrunner as the main character.

[FrostyNSO]

[Lord Ben]

Oh, in my group we always figured it was 1=1. Where is that written?

At any rate, it's not like each member of the military has hundreds of thousands in cyberware. All that equipment is cyberware free.

[nick012000]

1 :nuyen: might equal 3 to 5 2070 UCAS dollars, but it would equal 1 2005 US dollar.

[Jaid]

i wouldn't personally include program costs. i'm sure the UCAS military developes their own programs, and can make as many copies as they need. thus, only the original development cost has any relevance.

[FrostyNSO]

[nick012000]

Or, more likely, buying bigger and better bombs, or outfitting the special forces with t3h ub3r cyb3r. :P

[FrostyNSO]

No, I was right the first time. :D

[Feshy]

"I'll be happy the day schools have all the money they need, and the air force has to have a bake sale to buy a bomber."

Equipment costs are dirt cheap in SR, compared to salary and training costs. Drones especially -- I'd image that they'd use drones instead of people wherever possible. Training and salary for a veteran soldier could reasonably top .5 to 1 million nuyen -- or you could send in the 10,000 nuyen steel lynx w/ a few military upgrades.

[Omer Joel]

Mechanized Infantry seems to be the direction towards which modern militaries are leaning - though Motorized (i.e. riding Jeeps rather than APCs) is possible as well, and, for example, is widely used by the RL IDF (Israeli Defense Force) in addsition to Mechanized Infantry.

So one APC per squad or one HUMVEE (sp?) per Fireteam is totally reasonable. Helicopters would be reserved for Airborn Cavalry and Special Forces.

A high-tech helmet is a must; probably Low Light, Image Link and Flare Compensation, with the cooler mods (magnification, thermo, ultrasound) reserved for SpecForces; if a smartlinked weapon is used by non-SpecForce "grunts", they will have a smartlink in their helmet as well.

Camoflage Suits make sense to me more than Full Body Armor; keep the FBA for Bomb Squads, higher-grade Riot Cops, some SpecForces and Corp units.

The rifle would remain the M-23, with an underbarrel Grenade Launcher given to one soldier per fireteam.

And an Ingram White Knight seems like a reasonable SAW; would the Army use Gyromounts and Smartlinks with them as well?

Pistol-wise, I think I'll accept stevebugge's suggestion and give Colt America L36's to the troops, and Predator-IVs to the MPs.

What about a sniper-rifle?