 Honor in the Shadows, Is it real? |
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 Dec 27 2005, 05:59 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414  |
I answered "Lip Service" because frankly I find the notion of a "Code Of Honor" for people who by definition do immoral things for money to be laughable. Consider the following flaws:
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Dec 27 2005, 06:06 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Irrelevant. At the point at which the sniper took the shot, he became a traitor. ~J |
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Dec 27 2005, 06:25 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 389 |
"The Code" is there for two reason: to allow murderers and criminals to work together in order to get paid and to let you sleep at night (different parts apply to different reasons, not killing teammates works towards getting paid, not killing innocents works towards a good night's sleep). In order for the arrangement to continue, you all have to obey the code. However, everyone has a point at which they will break their code (you may not have found it yet, but it's there). Sure, you won't kill innocents, but what happens when Darke (or some suitably "bad" person) is standing in the middle of 20 innocents, preparing to complete a ritual to open the world to unspeakable Horrors, and all you have left is a frag grenade?
You obey The Code to stay in business (although business is certainly still good for those that don't obey the code, they just get the wetwork and structure hit jobs, not the stealth/bodyguarding jobs), and you hope it never comes to the point where you break it. |
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Dec 27 2005, 06:45 PM
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#29
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Define immoral. Is stretching someone in a rack because you hope to save his soul immoral? Is stretching someone in a rack because the Church pays you too and you know they want to save his soul immoral? Very few Shadowruners are immoral. Fewer still or amoral. Most are differently moral. |
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Dec 27 2005, 07:04 PM
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#30
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Then not throwing the frag grenade is hurting innocents, so your code demands that you pull that pin. I've never understood how those sorts of dilemmas were supposed to undermine moral codes. -Frank |
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Dec 27 2005, 07:44 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
No kidding.
Really though, organized crime does not work unless there is a certain amount of trust and respect. That is the baseline code that even crazy sams that whack kids who get in the way must follow, or else they have no work to pay for their kid killing cyberware. It is not so much a moral thing in the traditional sense. The streets of the sixth world have their own views of morals. |
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Dec 27 2005, 08:36 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
Eh, what can I say? Maybe so. I guess the remaining characters didn't think like you. Crazy world, isn't it. |
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Dec 27 2005, 08:46 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That just shows that they're wrong.
~J "When in doubt, I'm right." |
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Dec 27 2005, 08:54 PM
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#34
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
When the whole team is in danger, you do not shoot a teammate if he does something you don't like. Priority one should be getting the team out together and alive. If a teammate does something you don't approve of, you take up issue with him after you're all away and safe. The middle of a gunfight is no place to be doing that crap.
All in all, the sniper was completely unprofessional in doing what he did, and not justified in any way considering the situation. Appearantly the remaining characters didn't care that the sniper had no regard for their safety, and would shoot a teammate because he "didn't like" what he was doing. |
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Dec 27 2005, 08:59 PM
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#35
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and a whole lot of fear. make a mess and you become a mess :smokin: |
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Dec 27 2005, 09:09 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
im·mor·al : adj. Contrary to established moral principles. I would say that being paid by one party to Murder/Steal From/Extort/Sabotage/Kidnap/Injure another party would be contrary to established moral principles, and therefore is immoral. Differently Moral? "I'm not evil, I'm just differently good" |
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Dec 27 2005, 09:15 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
I'm not going to argue the relative propriety of the sniper's actions. Indeed, as the GM I was a bit taken aback when it happened. I recall thinking, "Well, guess it's going to be 'Mission Accomplished!' for the Ghosts today." However, a blanket statement like the above quote invites debate. Being on the same team isn't a suicide pact. If a team member is doing something that you don't want responsibility for (such as hostage-taking, murdering innocents, whatever your own line is that you won't cross), why shouldn't you throw them out of the life-raft, as it were? |
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Dec 27 2005, 11:04 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
But who establishes the moral principles? What I am putting forward is that the criminal world of Shadowrun has established certain morals for these rogue elements of society, which allow it to function effectively. So while the criminals as a whole are immoral when contrasted with greater society, there is further morals established within that society. Therefor being paid to steal such and such a device is an immoral act by greater societies standards, having a flash of conciense and not stealing it are considered immoral by the standards of the criminal world. |
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Dec 27 2005, 11:54 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
That is a very romanticized view, and is certainly in the flavor for a lot of sci-fi and crime movies, so it could be right for your game. In my games there are only two things keeping the underground functioning: NEED and FEAR The only reasons people aren't screwing each other over all of the time are that they either need this person for some future service, or that person scares the holy bejesus out of them. If someone doesn't need you and isn't afraid of you, better watch your back around them. Or better yet, make them need or fear you. Granted this does not make the most efficiently functioning underground, but I don't see a vast criminal underground functioning very efficiently. |
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Dec 27 2005, 11:58 PM
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#40
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
...and a fanatical devotion to the Pope. ...and spiffy red outfits. -Frank |
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Dec 27 2005, 11:58 PM
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#41
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
It was not a blanket statement, but a statement made in the context of the situation you described. Sorry if it came accross as such. If the team already had the Ghosts after them, I'm not sure there would be much more they could get in trouble for that would make things worse. Now if the sniper had a moral code then I understand, but unless the troll was planning to kill the hostage, I really think the sniper chose the wrong time and definately the wrong way to deal with the situation. |
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Dec 28 2005, 12:20 AM
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#42
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ooh, i like the sound of that :silly: |
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Dec 28 2005, 02:21 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Well in that case I think we are saying the same thing. You just see the code as more of what the Street Sam considers the code. I have honor, therefore I don't lie to friends, business associates or contacts. I see the code as more of what the Weapon Specialist might see it. If I lie to business partners, friends or contacts than I lose those options, and am likely to not be able to make a living. I consider both to be a moral code, even if one is driven by pragmatic needs and the other by idealistic whimsy. On the other hand, looking over your post again, you seem to suggest that if someone is more powerful than you and doesn't need you they can screw you at will. I suggest that this is not the case, as if you get a rep for screwing people over, people stop working with you. Reputation is everything in the shadows. |
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Dec 28 2005, 01:28 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
It is easy to imagine circumstances when one must disregard "What Is Right" and focus on "What Is Less Wrong." Probably happens to most of us at some point IRL, as well. In my opinion, what seperates civilized, decent behaviour from scum is recognizing that you have had to choose "What Is Less Wrong" instead of trying to justify it as "What Is Right."
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 Dec 28 2005, 02:58 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
I have played and seen both ends of the spectrum.
The different lines that your characters perspectives draws in the moral sand is part of their personality. What makes them them. That is what makes playing characters interesting, a perspective that is not your own and working through it. How the rest of society, straight and shadowy, sees it is a matter of common concensus. Specifically the interpretation of ettiquete and circumstance. Hell in any game there's two codes in tandem, the character's consensus and then the players consensus. So I am proposing option D. All of the above. :) (It is better to be loved but of the two, fear is more dependable. So a Prince should aspire to be feared.)? |
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Dec 28 2005, 04:11 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Why do you equate honor with morality? They don't necessarily have to have anything to do with each other. Having a code of honor means that you have integrity (since most codes of honor are not based on absolutes), not that you're moral. |
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Dec 28 2005, 06:00 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
It seems to me that Honor, Integrity, Ethics, and Morality are all intrinsically linked, and are all at the center of the current discussion. |
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Dec 28 2005, 07:13 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
Talked to the sniper's player today about the discussion. He said that he had couple of reasons for what he did:
1. He didn't want the kid getting hurt (and resolved this by throwing lead in that direction?!?). No mention of any code about not harming kids. It never came up in any other run. 2. Thought that hostage-taking was going to get them into even more trouble (though, as FrostyNSO points out, there wasn't much more trouble they could get into at this point; it sure didn't look like the Ghosts were planning on taking prisoners). 3. Ultimately believed that as a hostage, the kid was gonna be a goner because he thought the Ghosts would just gun everyone down and blame the death of the kid on the hostage-takers (incidentally, this WAS how I planned to deal with any hostage-taking situation; blame any civilian casualties on those no-good terrorist shadowrunners). This begged the question; why DID the troll have to die? He said that he'd already tried to tell him to stop, he didn't, and he didn't have the time to keep talking. Given his own stated motivations and the situation, he almost definitely did the wrong thing. Not that it's such an unusual thing, considering the high-tension circumstances. |
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Dec 28 2005, 07:51 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
I disagree. I do think that you will find a Bell curve distribution in nearly every statistical group, but the center of the curve will be skewed based on the subset of humanity you are observing. For instance, Shadowrunners (being professional criminals) would skew pretty far to the Dishonorable side of the spectrum, while say Nuns would skew towards the opposite side. |
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Dec 28 2005, 08:10 PM
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#50
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That is true in general. The only reason the average citizen at large doesn't go around raping and pilliaging is fear of the consequences, wether that be imprisionment, death, people not liking him or simply fealing bad about it in the morning. |
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