Cumulative recoil? Options

[fenikso]

Hi to everybody on forums.
My question is simple. Is recoil modifier from first and second burst cumulative? I think so but I am not sure.
Thanx

[FrostyNSO]

i think so

[hobgoblin]

its allways been so in the past...

[Cold-Dragon]

Yes, it does stack up over time, and in the case of the heavy guns, any leftover recoil is doubled for penalties.

Otherwise there are several ways to compensate - though the ones for heavy wepoans tend to require a gyro system to fully manage I think.

[Jaid]

recoil modifiers do stack.

it should also be noted, however, that most recoil compensation applies per action, so if you have gas vent III and do two 3 round bursts, you will not suffer any recoil modifiers at all iirc.

[Clyde]

Yeah, I believe Jaid has correctly stated the rule.

[hobgoblin]

i dont know the examples in SR4 but in SR3 and earlyer it was stated in the example that: while you could compensate for all the recoil on the first action, it would still be added to the second action.

ie, have 3 points of recoil comp. fire a burst, no recoil. fire a second burst within the same phase and you have 6 recoil to deal with, and the compensation can only take care of 3. have this changed?

[mintcar]

[hobgoblin]

i was going with SR3 numbers as thats what i can remeber from the top of my head :P

so your saying that even tho the recoil got conpensated for in the first burst, it will still effect the second burst?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

As far as Rob Boyle goes, only uncompensated recoil is cumulative.

Use the search function...

[hobgoblin]

noted for some other time :P

[Findar]

Unfortunately I don't think Mr Boyle has thought through how this should work. Why should there be less recoil from firing two 3 round bursts than 6 rounds full auto? Based on the recoil comp applying every action you two times the benefit if you fire bursts. Dioesn't make sense. It should apply per action phase like it did in SR 3.

[Moon-Hawk]

I dunno. I thought it seemed reasonable that multiple short bursts would be more accurate than long, sustained bursts.
But I've never shot anything that fires faster than semi-auto, so I don't really know.

[Mr.Platinum]

[stevebugge]

I've often wondered if Recoild modifiers only applied to one or both bursts in a combat phase.

Example I have a character who has a cyberarm Gyromount and an Ingram Smartgun. For simplicity of modifiers let's say he is trying to take down a good size ork with to successive narrow short bursts.
Recoil for burst one is a +2 modifier but between the Ingram's built in RC and the Gyro mount I can absorb 5 points of recoil. However for burst two the recoild modifier would be +5 under some readings of the rules (+1 for every previous shot fired) or +3 (only counting uncompensated recoil). The second part of the question is for the second burst would all 5 points of RC be available, or would 2 of those be used by the first burst leaving only 3?

So I get these possible results:

In all cases Burst one has no recoil modifier.

If Recoil stacks up but all RC applies to each burst, Burst 2 has no modifier.

If only Uncompensated Recoils Stacks up, again it does not matter if RC applies to both bursts or not, there is no modifier.

If Recoil stacks up, but RC has to split over total recoild for the action phase then I end up with a -2 dice modifier for the second burst.

Which one is right?

[Jaid]

well, here's the second time for the link to get posted. thank you, Rotbart, for saving the trouble of looking up the post to back up my original assertion :P

Stevebugge, your answer is here.

now all we need is for someone to post it again, and maybe everyone will notice it ;)

[Clyde]

Yeah, but the new SR4 Errata is calling Rob Boyle into question - recoil doesn't apply per action in the example anymore.

[Orb]

Clyde,

Why would you say that? I only see one reference to recoil and its just correction to the math - it doesn't clarify the situation. The example still conflicts with Rob Boyle's explanation which appears to be a more literal interpretation of the rule as written.

The rule says that recoil compensation reduces the recoil modifiers for bursts are listed as -2 first burst, -3 second burst.

[Arz]

In SR4 recoil is not cumulative. It doesn't say it is anywhere in the rules. I'm having the same problem that most of you are having in making the transition to SR4. The past rules should not be referenced when reading the new rules. They just add to the confusion.

The only time recoil gets debilitating is when you split your dice pool. Any recoil penalty is subtracted after the split, effectively doubling the penalty and combines in gruesome manner with heavy weapons.

As far as I can tell there is little need for more than 3 points recoil comp for burst fire.

[mintcar]

Full auto bursts are looking fairly bleak if you go by Rob´s explanation. They would have their uses if the extra damage counted for getting through armor, but it doesn´t.

On a side note I always liked the image of a spirit being immune to weapons, but if you shoot it like crazy with a well aimed full auto burst with a machine gun it gets teared to pieces. It´s a more dramatic way for a spirit to go down. Now they go down with one shot kills from adepts, but they´re immune to automatic fire. Gives the impression they´re immune to normal weapons because they´ve got tough skin, and not because shots go through them, like I always imagined.

[fenikso]

Recoil IS cumulative (when burst are mentioned for the first time, there is word additive - IMHO cumulative). Recoil compensation IS NOT cumulative that way.

So two bursts -2 recoil and -3 recoil + 3 points of compensation = 0 for first burst, -2 for second burst.

It is how I first thought it works and now it corresponds with example.

[mintcar]

That is how I thought it worked too. Rob´s break down contradicts that however. In his example, only uncompencated recoil carries over, and that means 3 points of recoil comp. is enough for bursts. That is why I think his explanation makes full auto rather useless by comparision.