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> Devices/nodes - I did not get it.
fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 11:28 AM
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Hi.
I just read Wireless world for the second time and I can not get one thing.

What is difference between device and node?

What about security camera? Can I hack every camera? Or I have to hack some security node only?
Is it sufficient to hack riggers commlink to control his drones? Or have I to hack every drone?

I have just mess in my head :dead:
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Ryu
post Dec 28 2005, 12:48 PM
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What I think (and please do correct me, read this just yesterday):

A node runs programs in AR/VR, a device is merely present inside its node. So if you get "legitimate" access to the security node, you could simply access the cameras, otherwise you would need to hack each. Your choice. I do hope comlinks count as device in this regard. Otherwise we would need to install agents with offensive utilities - otherwise known as ice - on every runners gear.
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mintcar
post Dec 28 2005, 02:11 PM
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A device is any electronic item that interfaces with the matrix, and that´s just about all of them. Any device can be hacked, using the device rating in place of all matrix attributes, ECCEPT if it is part of a network (such as a PAN). If it´s part of a network, you have to hack the central node, then use the Command program on the device from inside.

This is fairly well covered in the book. The real problem is the lack of rules for most matrix actions. What kind of test is it to command surveillance cameras or turn off electrical fences? The program descriptions tells you it´s propably a command+hacking or a command+computer test, depending on your account status. But is it an extended test? Is it an opposed test? Is it a threshold test, and if so what´s the threshold? These things are up to the GM for now.
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
A device is any electronic item that interfaces with the matrix, and that´s just about all of them. Any device can be hacked, using the device rating in place of all matrix attributes, ECCEPT if it is part of a network (such as a PAN). If it´s part of a network, you have to hack the central node, then use the Command program on the device from inside.

Sounds reasonable. But, does it mean, that if drone is alone, it can be hacked, but if it is on riggers AR, I have to hack (and find) his commlink?
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mintcar
post Dec 28 2005, 03:25 PM
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Under the headline "Linking and subscribing" on page 212, it says you can configure your devices to only interface with your commlink. Nowere in the chapter is any method of getting around this, as far as I know.

(A problem I never thought of before arises here. Nothing really prevents you from having devices configured in this way even if they are not actively subscribed. How can you hack them then? They are inaccessable to all devices eccept the owner´s commlink, but that commlink does not communicate with them. Then they´re hack-proof, right?)

I might house-rule some way of spoofing the signal of the parent device if any problematic situation occurs. No system like this should be fool proof, but the easiest way of handeling it must be to just say there might be a way of hacking the drone directly, but it would be more difficult than finding and hacking the commlink anyway.
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Magus
post Dec 28 2005, 04:34 PM
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Well to hack anyone's drone/device that is subscribed to thier PAN you still need to hack the comlink the DOMAIN CONTROLLER in other words, then using your spoof program/complex form/sprite you would "fool" the device in thinking it was a legitimate command from its PAN/Controller. This is detailed in Hacking section in BBB Wireless World. Sorry I don't have a page reference I do not have my book at work today.
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elbows
post Dec 28 2005, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)

A problem I never thought of before arises here. Nothing really prevents you from having devices configured in this way even if they are not actively subscribed. How can you hack them then? They are inaccessable to all devices eccept the owner´s commlink, but that commlink does not communicate with them. Then they´re hack-proof, right?


I'd imagine you can get around this by discovering the access ID of their commlink (a Matrix perception test?) and then spoofing it. Then the device would think it was talking to the owner's commlink and would accept the connection.
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
Under the headline "Linking and subscribing" on page 212, it says you can configure your devices to only interface with your commlink. Nowere in the chapter is any method of getting around this, as far as I know.

I just were thinking, how is then possible Example #3 on page 210.

Bitsy hacks police drone by finding its signal. Maybe it does not get any commands from its node, but OS can be crashed?
Or maybe drone is not device :grinbig: .
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Cold-Dragon
post Dec 28 2005, 05:45 PM
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yeah, what was said. if you can find the drone in the wireless, even if they're far away from their controller, you can hack into the drone and try to trick it into thinking the controller gave it the command. That's the whole thing to hacking a node. you gain entry, then manipulate it. It's just easier to trick the computer into giving the command sometimes.

at least, I think that's how it is. >.< I need to review matrix chapter again. Some devices you have to get to through another source, especially cyberware and other items on a person, because those are often linked through the neural network, not the wifi. So you'd have to get into something like a commlink that happens to also be connected to do it.
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 28 2005, 05:56 PM
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Check out the "Spoof Command" on p.224 in the BBB. When you spoof a command you send a signal that appears to be from the owner's comm so the drone/device obeys.
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
Check out the "Spoof Command" on p.224 in the BBB.  When you spoof a command you send a signal that appears to be from the owner's comm so the drone/device obeys.

So how? You hack drone as usual, but you can not do anything. So you perceive owners persona and then spoof command? How can I hack it, if it only interacts with owners commlink far away?
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 06:08 PM
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Maybe I am just missing one sentence, few words or something :huh:
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Cold-Dragon
post Dec 28 2005, 07:41 PM
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As Kigmat said, you use the spoof command. Spoofing literally makes the drone think that said commlink sent the command. It's a fake command with a fake datatrail meant to 'counterfeit' a legit command.
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
As Kigmat said, you use the spoof command. Spoofing literally makes the drone think that said commlink sent the command. It's a fake command with a fake datatrail meant to 'counterfeit' a legit command.

OK, to spoof command, you have to perceive rigers persona. So:

1) You hack his commlink, perceive his persona and go.
2) If he is far away, you hack drone, perceive his persona and go.
3) Or you hack drone and crashes it's OS.

My problem is, what if he ordered drone to only work with his commlink as Mintcar said (configure your devices to only interface with your commlink).
How can I hack it? So it does not matter?

How Example #3 on page 210 can work, if drone is configured to only interface with rigers commlink (I think police will do this)?

OR, maybe I am getting it ;) , without this, anyone can order something to drone without hacking it?

In this case you can:
1) Hack drone and find rigers comlink, hack it and then spoof commands
2) Hack drone and crash some programs for example.
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 28 2005, 09:55 PM
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When you configure a drone to only talk to a specific Comm, it does this by identifying the comm by certain properties. Spoof makes the drone believe that you *are* that specific Comm so it should obey. Most of the time you will have to hack the controller's Comm, fortunately you only have to gain access, not actually do anything.

Example:
Bob has his drone driving up and down the street, giving Mary a migraine. Mary hates Boband his annoying techno-toys so she plans on wrecking his drone. Bob's comm is in hidden mode so first Mary has to locate it (Electronics Warfare + Scan (4)). Mary finds Bob has encryption so she cracks that (Decrypt + Response (Encryption Rating x2)) and can then begin intercepting the communications (Electronics Warfare + Sniffer (3)). She tries to make changes to the data stream (Computer + Edit) but the drone is registered to Bob's Comm and ignores her changes as cruft.

She's going to have to try and masquerade as Bob for this to work, which means
Mary needs to get a good "look" at his Persona. Being a foresighted spite-queen, she's already probed her way into his Comm (Extended Hacking + Exploit) to get his remote-access password. (Bob doesn't know it yet but 30 gallons of prime, frozen bull semen suitable for artificial insemination are currently arriving at his place of work. All the records will agree that Bob's comm placed the order.) She logs in and examines his Persona (Computer + Analyze).

Mary fires up her disguise software (Hacking + Spoof) and orders the drone to aim straight for a bus three blocks away. Bob begins cursing as his new toy is crushed flat.

Mary giggles and decides if now is the time to load the spam-relaying software on Bob's comm. Bob will need the 0.0001Y/spam earned to buy a new drone. Though the fines for spamming on the corporate grounds will be far, far more.

Mary has more dark plans for Bob so she clears the records of her actions on Bob's Comm (hacking + Edit). She does a data search (Data Search + Browse) to make sure she hasn't missed something and realizes he has other drones online. She makes a few changes to the subscriber lists (Hacking + Edit) so the drones are no longer exlusively tied to Bob's comm. Hopefully that punk kid Jeph down the street will notice and cause some sloppy mischief, diverting any blame away from her.
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fenikso
post Dec 28 2005, 10:27 PM
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Nice one! 8)
Thats what I needed. Thank you a lot.
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 28 2005, 11:25 PM
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Two things I left out is that Bob's Comm gets a chance to recognized Mary's hacked login and if Bob is full VR on his Comm he might have Analyze running, which could detect Mary's virtual presence.
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Tarko
post Dec 28 2005, 11:38 PM
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couldnt she just use spoof? and forget the analyse bit (Computer + Analyze).that she did before-hand?
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Cold-Dragon
post Dec 29 2005, 06:25 AM
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That would be like impersonating someone you have never seen, but everyone else has. it doesn't work. You need some idea of what you're imitating for it to be capable. Mind you, in the case of making something slaved to a system fall for it, it's relatively easier (as the system is the friggin world in a space, and usually preset to an extent). A persona/rigger/hacker/whatever is trickier by nature of being unique and not being a fat entity in a digital world (you can't be present in a persona like you can a server).


*edit* actually, now that I go read the spoof command, that might not matter in a server. as long as you can convince the device that you should be paid attention to, you don't need to 'spoof' to use it (although the system will notice if you don't hide yourself). It's when you need through someone else's ID or maybe a fake one (if you can fake for those open to general use) that you spoof.
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fenikso
post Dec 29 2005, 09:14 AM
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One more thing.

Example #3 on page 210 - so that drone had not been registered to someones commlink at the time, right? If it would be, it can not be hacked. But you can find the commlinks node, hack it and than spoof some nice command (like play basketball with yourself :rotfl: ) or unregister it.

Can you crash some drone programs from commlink node?
Or just move to drones node from commlink node?
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 29 2005, 06:12 PM
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All drones are nodes; think of their brain being a comm running a Pilot program.

A drone registered to a specific comm will only accept commands from that comm. Note that "commands" refer as much to the Command program as anything else.

The drone is still a wireless node with all the good and bad that brings, meaning it can be hacked. It isn't efficient to hack individual drones when you could hack the controlling Comm and crash/steal the whole drone net. That's why Bitsy considers it a "brute force" approach.

In my example Mary could have hacked Bob's drone but it would have been a "fast" hack (probing takes hours) that could have set off an alert, making Bob realize it was an active attack rather than a defective drone. Even if she had stealthed into the drone, she still couldn't give the drone orders until she changed its registration (Data Search followed by Edit). Then she'd have to try and quickly delete all signs of her presence on the drone in case the memory survived (meaning access logs as well as the registration of her comm ID). Way too tricky to pull off in the few seconds of time available.

She can't spoof the drone even though she's logged into it because she doesn't know what the registered controlling comm "looks" like. Modern technology today keys that work like the puzzle lockets. Each one is incomplete and only when you put them together do they make sense. This means that even if you have one of the keys (the drone) you still can't guess what the other one looks like (the comm). Future tech will be as capable, if not moreso.

Her options are to crash the OS, kill the Pilot, possibly load a new Pilot/Agent, and edit the drone's registration so she can give the Pilot orders.

Arguably she could load up a Command program while hacked into the Drone and use it to control the drone's autonomous subsystems like weapons or sensors. The Pilot is probably the only application that drive the drone, though.
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fenikso
post Dec 29 2005, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
All drones are nodes; think of their brain being a comm running a Pilot program.

A drone registered to a specific comm will only accept commands from that comm. Note that "commands" refer as much to the Command program as anything else.

The drone is still a wireless node with all the good and bad that brings, meaning it can be hacked. It isn't efficient to hack individual drones when you could hack the controlling Comm and crash/steal the whole drone net. That's why Bitsy considers it a "brute force" approach.

In my example Mary could have hacked Bob's drone but it would have been a "fast" hack (probing takes hours) that could have set off an alert, making Bob realize it was an active attack rather than a defective drone. Even if she had stealthed into the drone, she still couldn't give the drone orders until she changed its registration (Data Search followed by Edit). Then she'd have to try and quickly delete all signs of her presence on the drone in case the memory survived (meaning access logs as well as the registration of her comm ID). Way too tricky to pull off in the few seconds of time available.

She can't spoof the drone even though she's logged into it because she doesn't know what the registered controlling comm "looks" like. Modern technology today keys that work like the puzzle lockets. Each one is incomplete and only when you put them together do they make sense. This means that even if you have one of the keys (the drone) you still can't guess what the other one looks like (the comm). Future tech will be as capable, if not moreso.

Her options are to crash the OS, kill the Pilot, possibly load a new Pilot/Agent, and edit the drone's registration so she can give the Pilot orders.

Arguably she could load up a Command program while hacked into the Drone and use it to control the drone's autonomous subsystems like weapons or sensors. The Pilot is probably the only application that drive the drone, though.

Supernice one! 8)
Makes sense now.

In your example Mary could hack drone and give it orders spoofing, because I think she have seen (in detail) Bobs persona before. But it would be ineffective as you said.
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 29 2005, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (fenikso)

In your example Mary could hack drone and give it orders spoofing, because I think she have seen (in detail) Bobs persona before. But it would be ineffective as you said.

Actually, that's a GM's call. How long can it be between when you make a Matrix Perception test and when you spoof a device? We figure there are time-sensitive bits of information on the Persona that get out of synch after a while. Kind of like trying to spoof an image recognition software with a picture that is 10 years old.

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Tarko
post Dec 29 2005, 11:41 PM
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depends if he ran 'security patch' or not.

As stated somewhere, using default security setting in Windoze (pun intended) is worth nothing unless you update it, preferably with non-Win software.

Meaning that Bob mignt not have change anything since Mary looked it up.
But, yes, it IS a GM call.... as much other things in the matrix section.
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kigmatzomat
post Dec 30 2005, 04:56 PM
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Actually, software upgrades aren't necessary. Many current security systems are time-sensitive, meaning the security key is only valid for a set period of time before you get a new key or that the security key updates itself using a time-sensitive algorithm and the initial handshake data.

I figure it should be based on the result of the Matrix Perception test; more successes more time. It hasn't been enough of a problem for us for me to try and hack up a house rule yet.
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