 Armageddon = Scourge?, May be offensive or blasphemous |
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 Dec 28 2005, 05:51 PM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996  |
Ok just to get it out of the way, the disclaimer on the title is to warn you that the idea presented may be too religious for some and others may find the juxtaposition of Shadowrun / Earthdawn fiction with Scripture blasphemous. However if you don't fall in to one of those categories then you may find this interesting. This week (at least in Seattle) the History Channel has been running Armageddon week trying to find historical tie ins to scripture. While doing some research on the ancient world for the Immortal Elf thread:
January 1 4713BC is the Julian day of Creation. The Mayan Long Count begins on August 11-13 of 3114BC. However the city of Jericho in the West Bank is about 11000 years old which means it would actually date back to the Third Age under Ehran's Time Line, Ur, Uruk, Ban Po (China), Sumer, and Memphis (Egypt) are all thriving, or even in decline by this period. Civilization has a recorded history that overlaps the 4th World significantly, and some (by Ehran's Time line) stretches back to the Third Age. Put in this context some ancient cities may have the Secrets of Creating Kaers hidden in them some where, Any settlement in existence prior to say 6000BCE. There may be some actual magic artifacts from ancient civilizations lurking around too, and possibly copies of the Books of Harrow waiting to be found and translated (or does the Atlantean foundation already have them). Well I put the two together and came up with some ideas. First off what if the Book of Revelation predicted the next Scourge? Clearly the End of the world could refer to the Scourge, could the Rapture be an event that believers will use to escape the horrors? Then there is the issue of an Antichrist, is it Darke, or someone or something else? Could the various depictions of The Beast be major Horrors? Keep in mind that Jerusalem is old enough to have existed during the 3rd. 4th, 5th, and 6th worlds. Would the Arc of the Covenant still be out there to find and what powers would it have? Of course to incorporate this in to a game you would then have to decide how much of the Bible is History and how much is Prophecy, and how much has been lost in translation. Does the Vatican have ancient copies of the original texts, have they edited the Bible? (see where this could get dicey for some people to run) The state of Israel could be sitting on some very important Archaeological sites and Artifacts. Ultimately the question of just what are God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will have to be dealt with, do he/they actually exist, and if so just what are he/they, Free Spirits of immense power? Mentor Spirits? A type of Totem? The run possibilities come from a lot of angles. apocalyptic Cults, the Vatican, the Viglia Evangelica, any other Christian Church organization, the Mossad, the Atlantean Foundation, Dragons, Immortal Elves, Corps just looking for powerful artifacts, and Goverments all come to mind fairly quickly. Hope this helps get the creative juices percolating out there, share your thoughts. |
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Dec 28 2005, 07:02 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924 |
DEATH TO THE HERETIC!
;) |
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Dec 28 2005, 08:20 PM
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#3
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Jerusalem isn't old enough to have existed in the 3rd World and is barely old enough to have seen the final waning of the 4th World's mana cycle if you are generous. Jerusalem was founded after the Isrealites escaped from Egypt which is generally considered to have occured during the reign of Ramses II, although some point to Ramses I.
Of course, there were already people living in the city that would become Jerusulam when the Isrealites got there so there is that possibility. Yeah, it is always nice finding ancient crap that man was not mean to know. I was planning to get the heracy on by posting a guidebook to be metaplane of Dis, Lucifer's capitol in Hell rather soon but I havn't gotten around to it yet. |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:22 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
Some people twist everything to fit it into the judeo-christian Bible...
I may be mistaken, but in Shadowrun pretty much ALL religions have it wrong. |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:24 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
.. or all have it right?
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Dec 28 2005, 09:36 PM
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#6
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
You forgot Cthulu & the Illuminati
and we all know where the Arc of the Covenant is located. "...in a very safe place..." |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:39 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
I don't think we can generalize that far about religions in SR. I mean, the blood mages sort of worship the Horrors by proxy. The Church of the Dragon is a bit off in my opinion, but I can see people doing it. The Mayans got the calendar right, and they had a pantheon. judeo/Christians have apocalyptic writings and try to foster community for mutual support (in the ideal). Muslims are the same or similar with some extensions. Nordic and Germanic folk have a pantheon as well, and a world ending story. The Native Americans have creation and end times stories that have interesting parallels to a lot of the other religions around the world, as do the African tribes/peoples. Not to mention the Eastern faiths and religions.
Calling something like that all right or all wrong for the setting is a bit nieve, there is enough inherent complexity to religions and faiths to allow them to be integrated into the SR universe without diluting them or being particularly sacrilegious or blasphemous. And the SR universe has worked hard to incorporate and not to alienate any religions. |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:43 PM
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#8
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Whether you're Christian or not, the bible is full of vivid imagery, mysticism, wild predictions and exciting stories. Plus it's the book most people are at least vaguely familiar with. Are you really faulting the author of the thread for matching the mysticism of Shadowrun and Earthdawn to the mysticism he's familiar with? That said, I find this thread offensive or blasphemous. Please, continue! I love seeing people tie SR into pre-existing mystical ideas (and I don't know of a lot of belief systems that have a post 2020 apocalypse quite as vivid as what we find in the bible). I suppose the big question is, is the scourge truly the FINAL end of the earth? Or is it a line of demarkation, between the earth of the fifth age and the earth of the sixth age (according to the bible). Will we all die in the new scourge, or will it just be life as we know it that dies? The creatures described in revelations and Daniel, are they metaphorical or literal horrors that will haunt humans? Is the rapture disappearing into heaven with God or being chosen by the government to stay safely in an orbiting 'ark', protected from the horrors? |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:45 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
You do, or don't? |
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Dec 28 2005, 09:52 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Warehouse 13 There exists truly massive amounts of history and prehistory undiscovered and rediscovered. Conspiracies rarely last beyond the generation that founds them - otherwise, we'd currently be in the middle of a covert war between the ancient sun-worshipping polytheistic Celtic-Indian precursor culture and the sun-worshipping monotheist Magi-Egyptian-Zionist cult behind the Catholic Church. Or something to that effect. Could there have been an ancient kaer on what became the city of Jerusalem? Sure. Some ancient Egyptian trading vessel, half drowned from their voyage across the Atlantic, may have tried to mine for copper in Cairo, Illinois, too. So what? |
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Dec 28 2005, 10:11 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Actually you are correct Jerusalem by that name does go only back to the 9th century BCE. The region surrounding has been settled continuously since before Ancient Egypt's old kingdom, which regularly raided Canaan for slaves. The city of Jericho which dates back to before 9000BCE is less than 25KM from Jerusalem. However Israelite settlements in the area date only to the 13th Century BCE. It would be reasonable to assume that as much of the region shares a common root language they may also share some common traditional beliefs. For the record the Jewish date of creation is October 7 3761BCE. Funny you should mention Dis, a town named Abu Dis exists on the fringes of Jerusalem near the "Green Line" |
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Dec 28 2005, 10:41 PM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Well it's not the only "mythology" I'm familiar with, it was however a combination of familiarity and the fact that I felt that it is not so heavily developed in canon material (whereas the Hellenic, Germanic, Japanese, Meso-American, Celtic, and Norse traditions are more developed) as to still allow plenty of room for creative liscence to be taken with the material.
I assume this was probably a humorous allusion to my disclaimer.
Biblical scholars already debate whether the Apocalypse is the end or the end as we know it, so I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer, though presumably there will be a 7th world to coincide with the rise of Houses Davion & Steiner :grinbig:
This is the part I thought would be fun, everyone pull out your copy of Revelation and Scourge Unending and maybe we should put up a poll. Which Horror most resembles The Beast? (I vote for Verjigorm). An orbiting Ark being built in secret by ARES or EVO would be another great plot point for an ongoing campaign. Ultimately I'm trying to provide some ideas to help get away from the well worn data or prototype steal run. |
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Dec 29 2005, 01:56 AM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Except maybe Kibology. |
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Dec 29 2005, 03:25 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Does someone have a solid timeline on the 4th-5th-6th world relationship? I thought I read on the shadowrun offical site an excerpt from a speech by Ehran to the YET about the cycle of magic (But I can't find it now). IIRC It stated:
[ Spoiler ] Anyone else think this works out? AH, a little help? ;) |
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Dec 29 2005, 03:32 AM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=11126&st=25
There is a discussion here. But you're not far off at all. The short version is the 5th World begins around 3113BCE and on average the interval between Threshold levels is about 5200 years. So the 4th World would have run from around 8313BCE to 3113BCE. Agriculture is thought to have gotten going only a few centuries before, though permanent settlements seem to go back further. The 6th world should end around 7211, however the worst of the Scourge hits near the midpoint of an up cycle and lasts 200-400 years (estimated from the Earthdawn Base Book history) so in theory Metahuman Kind will be locking themselves away from the Horrors around 4311AD. Though there is plenty to suggest that things may be accelerated this time around. |
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Dec 29 2005, 05:42 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Seems to me, if we manage to avoid blowing ourselves up, we might just have let the Horrors have earth while we take everything else in the universe by 4300.
Who knows, each planet might have it's own mana cycle. Looks like the Horrors would only be active on 1 in 25 or so if that is the case. Just avoid those worlds. |
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Dec 29 2005, 07:00 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Lol, another 2000 years? Harl will be leading UNAN Marines against the Horrors Metaplane.
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Dec 29 2005, 05:47 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
The key is that the interval between threshold levels is semi-regular, ther isn't any canon indication that the waveform itself is regular. For example the threshold level could be reached then the mana level could rise very quickly and the scourge could come early, be short lived, and then the mana level could go in to a drawn out decline. Geek that I am I'd love it if someone actualy plotted out the Mana-Cycle and did the math (problems are that there isn't enough canon data to do so, and my Math-Fu is weak)
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Dec 29 2005, 10:53 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
Well at least nothing horrible has happened in our time or at least not yet.
I really don't want to be infested with HMHVV, i've seen to many zombie movies. |
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Dec 31 2005, 07:53 PM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Ploting the mana cycle is even more difficult since, by canon, the mana level can be and has been altered by metahuman actions. In the Fourth World, it was artifically frozen by Theran magicians. Near the begining of the Sixth World it was artifically increased by the Great Ghost dance and similar acts of super-magic.
That's my prefered stance. If one considers the Passions to be ubber Free Spirits then it makes since that there would be other powerful Free Spirits posing as gods. A giant pantheon of deities spanning untold metaplanes, all vying for metahuman worship and the karma that comes with it can provide great flavor and great plot hooks. |
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Feb 9 2006, 04:21 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
And on the third day this thread shall rise from the dead.....
Actually the crossover questions reminded me of it and I thought I'd bring it back to see if anyone had some new thoughts. I'm also thinking of doing a campaign which starts with a run for the Atlantean Foundation or the DIMR and ends with the characters working for a bizzare alliance between Harlequin and the Vatican against a eastern european successor to Darke. |
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Feb 9 2006, 04:33 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It melts Nazis. Duh! I can't believe you didn't know that. :grinbig: |
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| Guest_MK Ultra_* |
 Feb 9 2006, 05:30 PM
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#23
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Guests |
*hummesindianajhonesthemeandducksfromlucaslawyerhighvelocitysuites*
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Feb 9 2006, 10:07 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
the rapture?? that is not written of, or about anywhere in the bible, or in any other biblical text pre-dating the modern bible. The idea was invented in the 1830s by John Neslon Darby. |
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Feb 9 2006, 10:50 PM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I'm aware of that (though I had forgotten the name of the inventor), but it is included fairly frequently in general discussion of Armageddon, enough so where it's not implausible to included it in a discussion for gaming purposes. Also for the record anyone who has a good understanding of Hebrew and can read the untranslated texts will have a fairly different understanding of the bible than those of us who are only able to read it translated in to a modern language. |
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