 Video editing and CyberEyes, forced inviz? |
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 Dec 29 2005, 11:46 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 28-December 05 From: Québec Member No.: 8,110  |
Do you guys think that a decker (I wont use hacker) could , technicly, edit a cyber eye'video feeds to remove all instance of a personne or an objet, making 'invizible' for the target?
I know that you could just crash the cybereyes and make that person effectivly blind altogether, but thats not the issue here. (crashing the cybereyes... funny thing.. I would like to see the streetsam physicly re-booting his eyes, poping them off to do so) |
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Dec 29 2005, 11:47 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 28-December 05 From: Québec Member No.: 8,110 |
Am asking the question since editing if usualy for just a small task... unless I totaly missed something. But video editing might be different.
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Dec 29 2005, 11:53 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i believe you would have to edit repeatedly (ie not just one action), but i think it would be possible.
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Dec 30 2005, 12:00 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 28-December 05 From: Québec Member No.: 8,110 |
so technicly you could upload an agent into the cyberEyes with the edit programm and make it dedicated for that purpose?
(how do you spell 'technicly' ?) |
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Dec 30 2005, 12:25 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
You spell it "technically".
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Dec 30 2005, 12:30 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Someones been watching/reading ghost in the shell....
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Dec 30 2005, 12:35 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 28-December 05 From: Québec Member No.: 8,110 |
actually, no.
I think I heard someone stating there was a second one. I couldnt even watch the first one, I would fall asleep each time. |
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Dec 30 2005, 05:25 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
I'd think it would work exactly the same as editing a security camera feed. You need to get to the cybereye node through the users PAN and then perform an edit action - I don't remember if you need a control program or not.
On the other hand, I'd give a gigantic bonus to notice errors in the editing for the owner of the eyes - it's not like he'll be looking at something other than his visual feed from his cybereyes. |
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Dec 30 2005, 03:40 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Run an agent loaded with Analyze and Edit. You'll get a program doing something similiar to virtual weather, virtual person, virtual pet, and so forth found in the sourcebook.
(It's been talked about before.) :) |
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Dec 30 2005, 07:09 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
In that case: His reference was to a scene where one of the protagonists notices that a dying man is looking at someone else - someone he can't see - prompting him to accuse the unseen person as having 'hacked his eyes' It was actually the first thing I thought of when I heard about cyber being hackable. |
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Dec 30 2005, 07:43 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Me too. I thought it was a cool concept though.
Too bad we don't all have cyber-brains... |
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Dec 31 2005, 09:28 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Texarkana, TX Member No.: 8,097 |
Visual interceptors = 8) , So I'd allow it. This might not be as difficult as you might think. What the brain perceives is not always the same as what the eyes SEE. You only have to exploit this fact to fool the brain. Considering the percentage of people who use Augmented Reality in 2070, this idea has a lot of potential.
As I see it it would be a pretty easy analysis test and then a more difficult edit test. Since the edit test is harder (and I'm a big beliver in simplifing the rules) I would just have them perform an edit test, they would need an analysis program though. This would have to be done fairly continuously, so a hacker would probably have to set up an agent inside the device/node to do it. Tests would be required when the effect started, and whenever someone tried to observe in detail. I would set the thresholds as follows.
Again I REALLY like this idea. It flows with the augmented reality/wired/cyberpunk theme of Shadowrun to me (which is pretty obvious considering how it draws from Ghost in the Shell SAC which is also Cyberpunk). There should be some kind of sprite that would perform this action for technomancers. I'll get working on it. |
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Dec 31 2005, 11:08 AM
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#13
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,873 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
my only issue on this is that the eyes would have to be wireless augmented as well. They'd have to be keyed into the commlink. Most liely they would , since it's probably a fair assumption that it they have a set of cybereyes they'd link them up to the AR so that hey don't have to have the glasses or contacts too . But it's not something that wil be in every case. If this happens, and the decker is the one doing the hacking, then they should jsut be able to turn off the commlink. But if you send in an agent, then turning it off doens't matter, the 'virus' is already in.
just my 2 :nuyen: |
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Dec 31 2005, 11:17 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
they wouldn't, though. the target doesn't really need cybereyes at all--as long as your target has some sort of AR interface running, you should be able to hack their visual feed. the question, though, is whether or not you can come up with a believable video file to insert into their vision. personally, unless the hacker has explicitly sunk phat sacks of cash into a high-end animation utility, and has a respectable amount of skill in video editing/animation, i'm not going to let them create any thing that will fool someone. at best, i'd allow them to insert new AR data into the target's vision.
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Dec 31 2005, 12:12 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Texarkana, TX Member No.: 8,097 |
I think it highly likely that the VAST majority of cybereyes are linked into there users PAN. In SR4 every cybereye includes a camera by default. And while the eye can be assumed to have some storage, linking it up to users Comlink with the potential to store vast amounts of visual data is only logical. Not to mention the utility to share your visual data with others. People who are downplaying the cybereye in favor of shades/contacts just haven't realised the power and utility of this (my players haven't). And as you say any sort of AR use of a cybereye would require wirless conectivity. As for getting rid of the Agent that has possesed your Cybereye, that's just life in the 7th world Chummer. As I see it, if you load an agent onto someones eye/VR gear, there options are limited. As you say, cutting the eye out of your PAN doesn't help you. I would rule that such an agent could easily run on your eye, since editing/filtering data is something it does naturaly anyways. Rebooting/System Reset doesn't help since the active program is "saved" and presumably starts up again on restart. SR4 isn't clear on this, but is certianly how I would program my agent to work, if it was possible, and I don't see why it shouldn't be (gameplay wise or realisticly). So what you need is some IC or combat skills to activly destroy/terminate the program. If you don't have either of these things, than your just stuck. You'll have to pay your friendly neighborhood decker/technomancer to remove it for you. Sucks to be you chummer, watch what networks you interface next time.
I can see where you are comming from here, but you have to consider the possible advances in Shadowrun programming skills. Simply pasting a fake picture over someones face is possible in real-time today, though wouldn't be simple. In 2070 this stuff is old hat, and the foundation of some of the popular AR MMORPG played in real-life. These AR RPG's and other AR 'themes' consitantly replace/alter the apperance of the background, surrounding, and people a person percieves to fit the setting of the AR program. This is the foundation of what I see AR to be. Eliminating a person or object from perception is just a mild step up from here. It is also enhanced by the fact that people are growing acustomed to what the see via AR being diffrent than what realy exists. In 2070 VR, including nearly indistinguishable from reality Ultra-Violet VR have been around for quite some time as well. I think it's safe to say that such levels of computational ability are within reasonable grasp at this point. But I do see your point, AR devices such as glasses/contacts/goggles could be harder to fool than cybereyes, because their nature of operation is diffrent. They (generaly) provide an overlay rather than replacing what a user sees. If using my system you could increase the threshold or substract dice to reflect this. I'm not going to, because I think the cool factor overides this. Dice should be added or subtracted anyways, as some editing tasks are going to be more difficult than others depending upon the situation, here are some examples of some modifiers:
Thats all I could think up with right now, but others could apply. Another way of doing this might be to have the edit test opposed by a perception check. This is more appropriate in a crowded situation, where an edit might be a slight failure, but still not get noticed. Still think of rules for this, but you could just note the failure, and have the person role perception to see if they notice it. Nice and simple. |
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Dec 31 2005, 03:40 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 11-December 05 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Member No.: 8,061 |
The only problem I see with this is that the hacker would have to perform the same procedure to each eye. Each individual cyber eye has its own image sensor and image processor - otherwise stereoscopic vision that we rely on would be ruined. Since the two agents would then be running independently from each other, the results could be different for each eye. That would most likely result in mismatched information heading to the brian, which should be easy to notice.
Cybereyes are normally wireless enabled and slaved to the users PAN. They all have an image link - this is how AR information is sent to the eyes. I would assume that a single image link handles the wireless connection for both eyes, so you don't need to slave each eye, individually, to your PAN. |
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Dec 31 2005, 07:02 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, and that takes a) a high-end program, and b) lots of training and practice to do right, despite how it's portrayed in the movies. besides all which, that assumes you've got a picture of someone else's face to paste on. i don't see art--and this is art, same as any other attempt to affect a viewer with artificial imagery--becoming any easier in 2070 than it is today. |
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Dec 31 2005, 09:52 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Please do not refer to SR4 as the Seventh World. "World" nomenclature is based off of the mana cycle, and not other advances. |
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Jan 1 2006, 10:38 AM
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#19
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
The hell you say? You mean all of the visual artists who happen to be programmers weren't wasting their time learning how to make art and integrate tech advances into their art, using tech to catch up to their own abilities? They couldn't just whip off a perfect simulacra in 10 seconds with Photoshop? Dammit, the media lied to me again! Noooooooooo! Damn, Max. That's some ignorant shit. |
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Jan 2 2006, 04:47 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 23-December 05 From: Texarkana, TX Member No.: 8,097 |
Virtual Reality simulations that are entirely realistic and virtualy indistinguishable from reality have existed since at least 2057. See "Dry Run" in Super Tuesday. The VR Simulation in that run was near perfect and everything that the character experienced was in fact virtual, including both the Astral Plane and Matrix. People, places, food, explosions, EVERYTHING had to be dynamicly generated (as they had no way of knowing what the runners would actualy do). UV Realms on the Matrix have also existed for quite some time. Some are completely realistic, some are fantastical, but all precived as being as real as real-life.
Given that the technology to do that has existed for at least 13 years in the Shadowrun world, I don't see why it should be so difficult to utilise this level of technology to perform the signifigantly less dificult task of simulating a portion of a characters visual reality. I guess this is a blow to the present day visual artists. But the fact is in 2070 reality can be simulated, and you may never be the wiser. |
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Jan 2 2006, 05:12 AM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Simsense recreating the astral plane? Can you give any more detail on this, because right now my bullshit detector has its needle pegged in the red. First off, every other product that I've seen with details about ASIST technology have flatly stated that they've never been able to record the sensations of an astrally perceiving/projecting mage. Without pre-recorded reference material, it'd be fairly hard to put together a 100% convincing simulation. Second, the portion of the ASIST playback system that's responsible for shutting off the body while the user is immersed in the simsense has no way of preventing a mage from astrally projecting/perceiving. The RAS Override shuts down muscle control and your body's organic senses. Going astral is not controled by any muscle, and is not an organic sense. There's no mechanism for the ASIST playback unit to detect when the mage is attempting to go astral, and no way for it to intercept that attempt so that the simulation can be substituted. If that's really how that particular section of Super Tuesday is written, then my opinion of that book just dropped like a rock. |
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Jan 2 2006, 05:28 AM
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#22
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It is in Super Tuesday, as Max stated. Dry Run is Dunkie's run from that book. The Big D owned a technology company that was building an early UV host. Their work was generally superior than the UV Hosts that would come later and was able to simulate everything except death and the metaplanes. Everything includes magic and astral. The beauty of this unique host was that certain values are influanced by user expectations to make the simulation seem more real. As a result, a character may get some interesting modifiers based on his expectations. This system almost certainly contributed to the realism of the magic simulation.
For more information look at this thread . http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...9522&hl=dry+run |
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Jan 2 2006, 06:47 AM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Damn, I hate having to disregard canon books, but I'm afraid I'm left with no choice. Well, at least it saves me the cost of a book. I'm sort of glad I never got around to buying it. You would think that something as important as a company developing a method of using ASIST technology and RAS Cutout to suppress a mage's ability to cast spells and to astrally project/perceive would have at least gotten a mention in subsequent sourcebooks on the subject. There have been a lot of books that have come out since Super Tuesday, and I've not seen any mention of such a technology. I doubt VisionQuest would simply sit on such a useful technique, and there's certainly a market for it. |
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Jan 2 2006, 07:48 AM
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#24
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, let's see. First off Dry Run was set in a shit-hot SOTA simsense lab where the simulation was already programmed and designed by the simsense artists, and run on god only knows what kind of systems. Not one thing about it was "on the fly" which is what you're trying to tell me can be done by anyone with Adobe Photoshop 2070 instantaneously in realtime because computers are so good they can compensate for the unknown variables and uncontrolled environment which we call Real Life. Somehow in 2070 a commlink and program are so aware and good that they can create perfeclty lifelike simulacra that are created instantly and updated perfectly in real time using insufficient or null information. Sure. There's nothing on-the-fly about Simsense and especially not the simsense used in that run. Given that I, like RunnerPaul, am going to have to call major bullshit on that. There are plenty of stupid or crazy things I've read on this forum, but the idea that anyone can whip up perfectly lifelike realtime animations instantly on a commlink is by far the pinnacle of both. |
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Jan 2 2006, 07:55 AM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Well, to tell the truth, I was only calling bullshit on using simsense to simulate astral space and using RAS Override to keep a mage from astrally projecting/perceiving. That's all. I agree with the rest of it. After all, if we have canon examples of AR Overlay programs such as Virtual Weather (p.322), and rules that say the edit program can manipulate a turn's worth of video feed, then as long as you can actually gain access to the goggles/cybereyes, then you can change what someone is seeing. (I'd certainly set a high threshold for some of the tricks in this thread, but I'd still say they're within the realm of posibility.) |
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