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> Invisibility and Playback, Cybereyes in playback with delay.
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post Dec 30 2005, 05:27 PM
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Can a person with cybereyes set their eyes to record all input, and replay it instantly, thereby allowing the user to see people under the invisiblity spell?

You are then technically seeing a recording of something that just happened, a record, and not your interpetaion of the world.
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Azralon
post Dec 30 2005, 05:31 PM
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Old trick, new edition.

Since you can basically do the same thing with glasses/goggles/contacts, I don't see anything wrong with cybereyes working like that.

There can't be any visual lag due to processing, otherwise things like thermographic would likewise be lagged (and have corresponding rules).
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 30 2005, 06:22 PM
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If they have Improved Invisibility, the spell makes them not appear on digital media, so the trick doesn't work. If they have regular Invisibility, the spell makes you unable to perceive them visually until the spell ends. So you still can't see them, because the spell is still functioning. Your recording goggles can see the target, but you can't.

But nice try.

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TheHappyAnarchis...
post Dec 30 2005, 06:25 PM
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Frank got it in one.

If it is basic invisibility, it is you that is effected, not your media. As an FYI, if you could see the guards watching the sec cams and they were within the range of the spell, than they would not see you on their cameras either.

If it was improved invisibility it affects the cameras too.
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Azralon
post Dec 30 2005, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist)
if you could see the guards watching the sec cams and they were within the range of the spell, than they would not see you on their cameras either

Hrm, I'll have to look into the wording on that.
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Azralon
post Dec 30 2005, 08:23 PM
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Yep, I'll buy that regular Invis hides you from indirect viewing, too.
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Tashio
post Dec 30 2005, 10:15 PM
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Then the question is, would the guard 2 stories up in the security room see you on the camera monitors as you walk down the passage with invis on or would he be affected as well and would only see you when he replayed the tape over later once the spell had droped.

Imp Invis of course nothing would show up on the camera for him to see anyway.
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Darkness
post Dec 30 2005, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Tashio)
Then the question is, would the guard 2 stories up in the security room see you on the camera monitors as you walk down the passage with invis on or would he be affected as well and would only see you when he replayed the tape over later once the spell had droped.

If he's not in the range of the spell he can't be affected.
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Azralon
post Dec 30 2005, 10:18 PM
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If he's outside of the range of the non-Improved spell, it doesn't matter how he's viewing you. The spell won't come into play.

Edit: Darkness FTW!
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MaxMahem
post Dec 31 2005, 09:07 AM
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I would say no, but to me it's more of a game-balance issue. Just having cybereyes shouldn't allow you to bypass Invisibility, that takes to big of a trick out of the mages bag. As for a reason [GM BS]it's because the spell affects the way your brain percieves things, not just the simple mudane process of sight. The cybereyes record and transmit it to your brain, but the brain simply ignores the information, just like it does sometimes with convential eyesight.[/GM BS]

However, if a clever player of mine DID come up with this idea, I might allow something like it. If they had reason to belive an invisible mage was nearby, they could review the tape of their cybereyes, and the mage would be there (assuming this is just regular invisibility). Rember in SR4 all cybereyes include cameras and presumably some storage memory. If the player in question wanted to use these recordings to fight the mage, I would allow it. After a succesfull Computer+Logic(2) test, he could see via his recordings after a short lag (a second or so). This would impose a -3 dice penalty on all test that require vision unless the player took 3 times as long to do it. This would be better than shooting blind (-6) but not by alot.

If you REALY want to see invisible mages, get ultrasound eyes, that works against invisiblity (but not silence!)
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RunnerPaul
post Dec 31 2005, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (MaxMahem)
Just having cybereyes shouldn't allow you to bypass Invisibility, that takes to big of a trick out of the mages bag.

However depending on how poor a someone does on their computer security for their commlink and their cybereyes, the trick it takes out of the mage's bag gets put in the hacker's bag.

For those of you who remember some of the pre-release hype: "Mobile Digital Wizards" indeed.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 31 2005, 03:41 PM
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the non-improved invisibility spell have allways been a topic of discussion. hell, the improved variant to have been so.

thing is that they do not have area of effects or targets in the normal sense. instead they work on line of sight between the target thats coverd by the spell and the people or electronics observing the area the target is in.

the problem basicly boils down to vague wordings on a very powerfull spell.

one thing one have to keep in mind is that the non-improved spell is a mana spell (or atleast it was in the older versions) and therefor affect only living beings. therefor, i would say that if the observers have LOS to whatever is coverd by the spell, they cant see a thing. this would include watching via mirrors and fiber optics (a mage can still use astral sight if he wants to).

this will allso include people using googles, contacts or cybereyes. why? because the image is being manipulated in their brain.

step around the corner and poke a old fashion camera around the corner and the story becomes a diffrent one. but then the wizard is allways best of using the improved variant. it can do all the trickes the non-improved can, pluss take care of cameras and other visual based sensors.

why? the image is most likely modified right after its getting picked up, so whatever is saved or sendt on to other electronics connected to the visual sensor will be a edited version. the other option is that the spell is able to modify the very light that get bounced of the target of said spell, thereby making him visualy not there ;)
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Hasaku
post Dec 31 2005, 08:07 PM
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The spell description says Improved Invisibility creates "an actual warping of light around the subject" and never mind how the subject can still see. :P
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hobgoblin
post Jan 1 2006, 04:07 AM
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ok, then atleast improved invisibility is coverd.

now we just sit back and wait for someone to post a question about imp. invisibility and laser based weapons...
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Jaid
post Jan 1 2006, 04:16 AM
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ok... what happens if someone under the effects of improved invisibility gets shot with a laser?

(from the GM's perspective): clearly light going into the light-warping area is unaffected. only light leaving is affected. thus, you would be hit as normal (provided you are indeed hit), but the laser would be negated (thus, if it deals 40 boxes of damage and you have only 10 available, it would not burn through anything behind you, it would just stop).

of course, now you get into another fun question:

what happens when someone under the effect of improved invisibility fires a laser :D
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Cold-Dragon
post Jan 1 2006, 04:23 AM
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While both spells involve a subject making a roll, there are circumstances to when you have a roll.

1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.

That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;

2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll.

3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 1 2006, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
While both spells involve a subject making a roll, there are circumstances to when you have a roll.

1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.

That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;

2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll.

3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body.

Improved Invisibility doesn't bend light, it alters the viewing device. A laser will kill the magician just as dead only no one will see it. If the spell is being sustained by someone else then the corpse would remain invisible kind of like that episode of the X-files.
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MaxMahem
post Jan 1 2006, 07:50 AM
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I don't think the you should put to much thought into the mechanics behind magic. It's MAGIC after all, it doesn't have to be logicaly consistant. I mean magic is pretty much defined by the ability to do things that logicaly are impossible. Improved invisibility shields you totaly from visual observation because that is what it is inteded to do. It doesn't shield you from laser blasts because that is NOT what it is inteded to do.

If you want a reason for it could be because magic is much more conserned with the meta-physical then the physical. Invisibility makes you invisible because it blocks the "concept" of sight. It doesn't block laser blasts because that concept is diffrent. Physical reality often has very little to do with the how and why of magic. It operates on it's own set of rules entirely. Rules that do not always coniside nicely with the physical reality of our universe, and the interal logic therin.
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Jaid
post Jan 1 2006, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 1 2006, 02:42 AM)
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon @ Dec 31 2005, 11:23 PM)
While both spells involve a subject making a roll, there are circumstances to when you have a roll.

1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.

That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;

2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll.

3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body.

Improved Invisibility doesn't bend light, it alters the viewing device. A laser will kill the magician just as dead only no one will see it. If the spell is being sustained by someone else then the corpse would remain invisible kind of like that episode of the X-files.

actually, according to Page 202, improved invisibility explicitly creates an actual warping of light around the subject.

according to page 201, physical illusions create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
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Cochise
post Jan 2 2006, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Hasaku)
The spell description says Improved Invisibility creates "an actual warping of light around the subject" and never mind how the subject can still see.   :P

And you don't know how I felt, when I saw that the poor german translation in SR3 concerning the effects of physical illusions now turned up in the english version of SR4 for the improved invis spell.
In SR3 the physical spells created "false" sensory input directly within the perceiving entity (camera, biological oder cybered eye). No light warping that renders the target under the spell physically blind and also immune to laser attacks.

But hey .. "eyery thing is better now in SR4" ... or so ...
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Cold-Dragon
post Jan 2 2006, 06:18 AM
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Keep in mind I never said the laser wouldn't work - I was specifically avoiding intense lasers that could kill. :P Yes, they would kill the invisible one, and if it didn't bore a hole through them, it'd be blocked too.

In either case, you'd see the beam 'stop' or have a break in it from the body.

and yadda yadda, what they said, what he said, etc, etc.
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Hasaku
post Jan 2 2006, 07:46 AM
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I just say the spell recreates the light hitting it for your benefit, so you can see. Lasers are too intense to redirect and are unaffected.

...MAGIC!
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Cochise
post Jan 5 2006, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
Keep in mind I never said the laser wouldn't work - I was specifically avoiding intense lasers that could kill. :P Yes, they would kill the invisible one, and if it didn't bore a hole through them, it'd be blocked too.

In either case, you'd see the beam 'stop' or have a break in it from the body.

and yadda yadda, what they said, what he said, etc, etc.

The more important point for me in this particular situation is:

Light being bent around an object is a manipulation of said light and not an illusion of not seeing the target, because you actually can't see the target once the light is warped. Yet another difficulty in terms of mechanics and SR4 magic is, that only the bent light itself could possibly resist against the spell, but not the perceiver. But since light isn't a living being that resistance is impossible ...

Thus spell is in the wrong category and by its current decription should not allow for any spell resistance test, regardless of "magical" explainations why laser light would suddenly not being affected when compared to "ordinary" light.
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Talain
post Jan 5 2006, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.

That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;

Cybereyes have been paid for with essence and are part and parcel of the person they are implanted in, so they would be effected for the same reason that magic never considers cyberware seperate from the host for the purposes of targetting.
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RunnerPaul
post Jan 6 2006, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE (Talain)
Cybereyes have been paid for with essence and are part and parcel of the person they are implanted in, so they would be effected for the same reason that magic never considers cyberware seperate from the host for the purposes of targetting.

I think that's a sidesteping of the issue. Mana based visual illusion spells don't affect the eyes, they affect the perceptions of the living being. The image sensors in the cybereye would still pick up the image of ithe invisible mage, but when the image is processed by the visual cortex, that's where the spell intercedes and says "This is not the mage you are looking for. Move along."

Just because they're implants paid for with essence, it doesn't entirely negate the fact that it's a technological based sensor. Consider the case of the vision magnification accessory for cybereyes. Comes in two flavors: Optical Lenses, and Electronic Enhancement. If you were to implant cybereyes with Electronic Magnification into a magic user, they would find that they suffer a total loss of Line of Sight when they turn the zoom on, even though they paid essence for the cybereye and it's "a living part of their body".
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