 Ruger Thunderbolts, Barrel Mounted Accessories |
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 Oct 14 2003, 01:40 AM
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#26
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Yes you can get it new, but it doesn't come with the Buddy Bumper or the Lightbar, those are added by the department along with the radio and center devider. The Interceptor package comes with improved shocks and a pretty nicely improved chip that boosts engine power a fair amount.
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Oct 14 2003, 04:33 AM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kirkland, WA, USA Member No.: 1,816 |
Though if I recall, you do get the nifty driver's-side spotlight...
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Oct 14 2003, 05:06 AM
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#28
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
nope, also aftermarket, and theres one on both sides.
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Oct 14 2003, 06:49 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 207 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,581 |
I dont agree with your at all. It should be very very difficult to get a Thunderbolt, even with a level 2 contact at Lone Star. These guns are cop guns. I did alot of research on this subject, as I was playing a cop who got caught up in a ton of drek and had to run toward the shadows for help. He still had his Thunderbolt. A couple of things to keep in mind(if your GM plays with these suggestions) - Thunderbolts have a very distinctive sound. If a cop hears one go off, they are going to run in that direction. - Thunderbolts have a high availability rateing, so its very difficult to get your hands on one. - There is no such thing as explaining to a cop why you have a gun that has been made specifically and soley for Lone Star. There is no such thing as the right permit, or the proper excuse. You get caught with it your up the creek without a paddle. I dont have page quotes, but this has been the general interpetation i've come to after doing alot of research on these forums, Seattle Sourcebook, and other SR3 material. |
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Oct 14 2003, 09:54 AM
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#30
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Although its unique sound will certainly be recognized by any copper on the street, this argument isn't worth too much. Depending on security rating of an area any cop will react to the sound of gun fire appropiately (i.e in AAA regions he'll rush to that direction and in D or E regions he'll first call for back-up ... an he won't do anything in Z zones ...)
Considering the fact that the Lone Star contract for the Thunderbolt ended in the late 2050ies (2057 or 2058 IIRC *haven't got the Lone Star book handy right now*) it's rather astonishing that the gun still has that avail rating by the time of 2061 ...
As stated above: That's no longer the case ...
Consequently there is an excuse: Being a legit owner of a Ruger Thunderbolt that has been bought after the Ruger-Lone Star contract expired ... |
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Oct 14 2003, 01:22 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kirkland, WA, USA Member No.: 1,816 |
The spotlights are aftermarket? A buddy of mine bought a Ford Taurus police cruiser and it had the spotlight... although, he did buy that one surplus... It's still got the buddy bumper, if I recall...
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Oct 14 2003, 02:27 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Distinctive can mean a lot of things -- I am told that veteran soldiers of the US Army call the sound of an AK-47 "distinctive."
If the Ruger has a similar sound or even tweaked to emphasize a "different" sound, odds are cops are as likely to come running towards the sound of a Ruger firing thinking a fellow cop is in danger. Even if the gun has hit the civilian market, odds are it'll be a couple of years before the idea of it being a "cop gun" wears off. Particularly permits for weapons like this will be few and far between and probably still fewer civilians carrying it or even using it. Arguments for and against notwithstanding, I still prefer the Savalette Guardian. Just as spiffy, not nearly as much grief for owning one and highly effective. It may very well be that this gun is an example of "oops, didn't think about it" in SR game design. -Siege |
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Oct 14 2003, 02:57 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I was just thinking about how the T-Bolt is the only machine pistol that fires a burst in a simple action, when all the others require a complex action.
Then I did some math, looking at the Beretta 93r. It fires at roughly 1100 rpm. That works out to firing a burst in 1/6th of a second, almost exactly the blink of an eye. That sounds like a good case for all machine pistols to fire bursts on a simple action. I would use heavy weapon recoil rules though, because you are really firing a SMG the weight of some SMG magazines. |
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Oct 14 2003, 09:50 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 305 Joined: 2-March 03 Member No.: 4,188 |
That's what they've done, see. They've attached a kazoo to the gas-outlet valve. Every time the gun fires, a whzzzzeeeeee!! sound emits. They experimented with a whistle (so that the copper wouldn't have to blow their whistle to get attention), but test-marketing indicated that veteran cops would fire their guns instead of blowing their whistles, even when gunfire was not appropriate. PS: okay, YOU try typing out the sound of a kazoo then! |
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Oct 14 2003, 10:08 PM
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#35
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
A few of us used to complain about the Thunderbolt's rate of fire (1,500 rounds per second, 90,000 rounds per minute; ls.116) being unrealistic, but since Metalstorm technology has come about, that nut has pretty much been cracked. The only issues there are minor, like the fact that the pistol has to be treated a bit differently. It isn't loaded like a conventional pistol and it can't be reloaded until the entire stack of ammunition in a barrel (of which there should be two containing six rounds each) has been fired off. Also, Ruger must have had to license Metalstorm's technology in order to legally manufacture the gun. Or maybe Metalstorm went nowhere and Ruger bought the patents... who knows. All of that is pretty easy to get around, really.
Here are the other issues: 1) The Ruger Thunderbolt was created to exploit a specific rule in Shadowrun, that rule being that more bullets = better body armor penetration (9M + three shots = 12S). The rule is fine for the sake of expediting game mechanics, but it is not very realistic. If body armor can stop one type of bullet it will stop six of them, and that's just how current US standards regarding the technology work. (More on that here.) There are other, better ways to defeat body armor. 2) Beat cops do not ever get full automatic weapons, let alone those that only fire full-auto, no matter how fast they fire, period. Mainly for the reason that training is expensive and time-consuming. Without proper training, there is far too much risk of one of those rounds missing the target, even at 90,000 rpm, and hitting something or someone that didn't need to be hit. This is stated as a reason for developing the Thunderbolt, but jacking up the ROF wouldn't help that much, especally at longer ranges. 3) Many officers, especially those of smaller stature, would find the recoil objectionable and would likely opt to use some other weapon. 4) AFAIK, there is nothing in the books that says that the Thunderbolt will be made available to the civilian market. What is said is this (ls.116): "The corp licensed Ruger to manufacture the weapon with several restrictions. For the first year of manufacture, all units produced will be sold to Lone Star at a predetermined (and very low) price. At the end of that period [June 6, 2055], Ruger may sell the Thunderbolt through the usual channels at whatever price the market will bear." So within the current Shadowrun timeline, the Thunderbolt has been available to markets outside of Lone Star for over eight years. Being that the Thunderbolt is a fully automatic weapon (albeit one that is limited to firing short bursts), the markets that this weapon is available to should be relatively small (military and tactical law enforcement). We can speculate on what the laws regarding civilian ownership of fully automatic firearms will be in a given country/state/corporation in the world of Shadowrun. In doing that we can logically assume that those laws will likely be far more strict than they are in the US today. Seeing that the US is one of the only civilized countries on the planet in which civilian ownership of fully automatic firearms is legal (albeit heavily restricted), I find it very unlikely that the resulting countries of the fragmented US would follow the "Second Amendment" line of thinking. I doubt that there would be a civilian market for the Thunderbolt at all, and I also doubt that Ruger would have reason to produce many Thunderbolts in the first place. Thus, finding a Thunderbolt that "fell off the back of a truck" would be incredibly rare and the pistol would require an ungodly premium to purchase. Then you have to find ammunition for it, which isn't like conventional ammo... The reason that the AK-47's sound is distictive is because of its rate of fire (@600-650 rpm), which is much slower than that of the US M16 (@750-1000 rpm) and is slightly faster than the M60 (@550 rpm). Also, there's a bit of a difference in sound pressure level when a gun is pointed at you rather than away from you. In the Thunderbolt's case, the ROF is so fast that three shots would literally be perceived as one loud shot, pretty much the same as a big revolver or small rifle (in firing three shots of a common pistol caliber, say .40 S&W, you're burning about 20% less powder than that of a single 5.56x45mm round). I doubt that the sound would be all that distictive. It would just sound more like a rifle than a pistol. |
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Oct 14 2003, 10:33 PM
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#36
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
The Thunderbolt has a legality code of 2P-E => Since all legality codes in source books are based on Seattle (UCAS) laws, this gun can be legally obtained with a permission within UCAS Territory ... And 8 years is double time of what I seemed to recall ...
Concerning rifles obviously yes. Concerining pistols (even with BF capabilities) obviously not ...
I was only speaking from the perspective presented by the books overall. The UCAS obviously did follow this line of thinking.
This could be part of the reason why the avail rating is still that high. But IMHO it still doesn't fit (compared with the avail ratings of other weapons that cannot be obtained with a license) ...
Provided that one considers caliburs and such ... which the rules by default don't. But that's another discussion ... |
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Oct 14 2003, 10:36 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
90k RPM? Has to be a Metalstorm-type gun.
Canon is canon, but sheesh! I'm sure you folks won't mind if I use my GM prerogative to make it a more conventional machine pistol in my game. |
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Oct 14 2003, 10:38 PM
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#38
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We mind. We will come to your house and steal your furniture.
~J |
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Oct 15 2003, 12:24 AM
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#39
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Yet another thing that doesn't make much sense. Again, seeing that the Thunderbolt is an automatic weapon, it should have the same legality code as other automatic weapons like assault rifles (2-G), submachine guns (4-G), or machine pistols (5-G). None of which are legal with a permit. The same argument goes for the AVS and the Enfield AS-7, along with more weapons in CC I'm sure. It makes absolutely no sense that an automatic weapon would be permittable because it's a pistol or a shotgun. Anti-gun politicians would shit themselves repeatedly on national TV until that law changed. They have enough problems with semi-automatic handguns as it is.
No, they did not. Permits are required to possess firearms that can be bought over the counter in the majority of US states today. If automatic pistols are permittable while automatic rifles and submachine guns are not, the UCAS decided to go in a direction that the US never once intended as far as automatic weapon laws go. It simply defies all logic. I put this down to a writer's mistake (or lack of interest) more than anything else.
It has nothing to do with calibers. In order to get that insanely high rate of fire that is talked about in the Lone Star sourcebook, you have to use technologies that are not compatible with conventional firearms. In conventional firearms, each round is stored as a cartridge, either the type that uses a case or a caseless cartridge. Both are used in the same manner. A number of cartridges a stored in a magazine. A mechanism moves them from the magazine to the chamber either manually or automatically at which point the weapon can be fired. In Metalstorm, all of the "cartridges" (that is, bullet, propellant, primer) are stored together in a linear stack of several rounds inside of the barrel itself. There is no time-consuming operation of moving each round from a magazine to a chamber or of ejecting cartridge cases. Because of that feature, Metalstorm is the only technology available that can attain the 1,500 rounds-per-second rate of fire spoken of in the Lone Star sourcebook. Also because of that feature, ammunition should be treated differently than that used in conventional firearms. |
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Oct 15 2003, 05:48 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 114 |
Well, sure it doesn't but remember that you are talking about SR ;) In SR an assassins pistol, which isn't be detectable by MADs and looks disassembled like normal items, is sold legally by Weapons World, wich means Ares. And it has the same legal ratings like normal pistols :grinbig:
Well, SR3 sources supersede SR2 sources, and in the CC they just dropped the insanely high ROF. |
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Oct 15 2003, 11:15 AM
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#41
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
I'm not argueing the logic of certain aspects within the system of legality codes. Nor am I argueing your logic when it coms to real world affairs. But by SR canon pistols and shotguns can be legally obtained, regardless of fire modes. That's a fact as long as these points are not changed via errata ...
I'm still not talking about our real world nor do I want to go through yet another debate about pros and cons of gun control. I'm talking about the "reality" within the SR Universe.
That's your perogative. But as long as the stats for these weapons are like they are, the ingame reality of UCAS laws went along the lines of the 10th amandment for pistols and shotguns while simultaniously disallowing previously allowed rifles ... ~shrugs~
As HMH pointed out: SR3 sources do no longer speak of such insame ROFs ...
Thank you, but I'm sufficiently aware of either technology and their principles. But that wasn't the point why I refered to calibers. By canon rules ammo is interchangable => calibers are ignored. Although the ROFs presented in LS requires a different technology in our world this is obviously not true in the SR Universe .. call it "miracle" or "suspension of disbelief" ... => the technological aspects are ignored as well ... So in SR the Thunderbolt uses normal ammo and that ammo is interchangable with other weapons of the "heavy pistol" template ... |
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Oct 15 2003, 09:42 PM
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#42
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Cochise, I know what the rules are, obviously, having quoted them myself. I'm attempting to get other people (not necessarily you) to apply a little logic to the legality issue. I'm suggesting that what the book says is wrong. I'm addressing this as an error that should be corrected.
How convenient. I'm offering the people who'd rather work with the flavor text presented in the LS book ideas on how they can make that statement work from a realistic standpoint and what kind of penalities they can apply to the weapon to make it a little less desirable from a shadowrunner's point of view. Some people don't like the idea that the Thunderbolt is so available. If you don't want to worry about it in your game, then by all means, ignore what I have to say. But people other than you might want to know.
You knew that what I was suggesting had nothing to do with calibers so you decided to mention an irrelevancy anyway? I guess what that does is suggest that what I'm saying is irrelevant also. Maybe it is to you. And that's fine. But again, there are other people who read these forums.
That's exactly what I'd call it if I had no other way to explain it. But since there are ways to explain it realistically, I opt for that. You don't have to like it or agree with me. You just have to allow me to express my opinions. |
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Oct 15 2003, 10:03 PM
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#43
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Did I disallow you to present your opinion?
I don't think so. You chose to disect my postings. Im'm doing the same with yours from the other side of the spectrum. That's the nature of a discussion. Actually, I do respect every single post I have seen from you so far (especially those where you kept your temper in situations where I most likely would not have), despite the fact that I do not have the need of that much realism in my games as you advocate. I have seen several attempts of creating a more realistic SR Universe over the time, especially when it comes to weapons, armor and things related to that field and your rules on those issues are still top ranked for me. If every consider changing my style of gaming SR, I'm very likely to go with what you have on your pages .... But until then I'm going to present my POV on that issue just as you do ... :D |
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Oct 16 2003, 06:33 AM
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#44
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
"That's not what the rules say." Fascinating and utterly enlightening point of view you have there, Cochise. Brings a lot to the table.
Enjoy. |
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Oct 16 2003, 02:03 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 24-September 03 From: VA Member No.: 5,641 |
Doesn't the rulebook say its a +4 special modifier for the second burst, not a +3? I could be wrong... I believe it is pg.19 of CC IIRC. |
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Oct 16 2003, 02:44 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Nice work on the T-bolt on your site, Ray.
I have a question, though. Your picture seems to have a magazine well and release. It's obviously not needed in a metalstorm action. Are those nonfunctional, and just there because Ruger is basing the T-bolt frame off another pistol frame? Perhaps that is the storage place for a second set of ammo tubes. |
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Oct 16 2003, 03:31 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-August 02 Member No.: 3,055 |
As far as I can see in the book, it doesn't say anything about not allowing a barrel mounted accessory onto the Ruger ThunderBolt such as a Gas Vent or anything else. The Pistol section header says you can have one barrel mount and one above barrel mount for a pistol, which I guess includes this gun.
However, reading the old Lone Star book and some of the flavor text for it I normally rule in my games that the Gas-Vent doesn't reduce the recoil of the second shot due to the fact most of the penalty comes from the punishment to ones hands from firing the gun over and over with such a high rate of fire. (Once again I try and use fluff, good or not, to make more balance for me.) I might allow pads or personalization of the gun to allow the reduction of the penalty of the second shot but seeing how I watch people waste guard after civilian after mage with this silly gun I tend to lean on the side of caution and allow no compensation. --Erghitz |
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Oct 16 2003, 03:52 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
It's a bit OT, but I believe that what SR calls recoil is actually muzzle lift. Muzzle lift is a weapon's tendency to move off target when you fire it, thus the TN for follow-up shots.
For example, all pistols have a "recoil" of one on the second shot in an action, whether .22 LR or 10mm auto. They obviously would have much different amounts of actual recoil, but might have similar amounts of muzzle lift. A compensated big game rifle could have punishing recoil, but stay relatively close to on-target when fired. |
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Oct 16 2003, 04:13 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-August 02 Member No.: 3,055 |
Understood. It does however define it as special recoil in the CC. It's the only other gun with that much penetration power to fire two burst fire actions in a phase. The Salvette comes close but it can still only fire one shot a phase and you still have to compensate for recoil. If you could just stick a Gas Vent on it to reduce the recoil of the second shot, you'd have the perfect Uzi III in a Heavy pistol package. As far as using a realistic rules for it, going off what you'd say I'd just have to rule that it just doesn't accept barrel mounts because of it's highly customized design. Or slightly less realistic, because of it's HVAR like nature. (More fluff, I know. I'm floundering.) -- Erghitz |
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Oct 16 2003, 04:38 PM
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#50
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
It's especially a "simple" one ;) Normally allows to play with different groups / at conventions without draging along a longer list of house rulings ... That doesn't mean however that I'm not willing to accept different POVs. Nor does it mean that I'm stuck dead on "the rules as written" (though I enjoy discussing them :evil: )
Looks great, but I do have the same question as Kurb: Why only +3 on the burst? Special reasoning there or just a minor lapse? |
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