Adept hacker, is this right? Options

[Mindfox]

Been reading these forums for awhile now, but this is my first time posting. So I am curious about your input about this and wanted to know if this works. An adept hacker with improved reflexes and improved ability in hacking skills. He would need some trodes, commlink, and some programs to work. So he would be able to walk around in AR and be as effective in the matrix as any other hacker in hot sim, maybe even a technomancer. Is this right? Am I missing something? It seems a little over powered and almost makes a technomancer useless. Now I know you can do the same with cyberware but this way you get speed and skill.

[RunnerPaul]

First off, the existance of Hacking Adepts does not make a Technomancer useless. Technomancers get sprites to play with, and certain sprite powers can not be duplicated by any other means.

Secondly while it's true that an adept with certain powers running in AR can duplicate the speed and effective skill boost of a mundane hacker running hot sim VR, that's a lot of BP spent to get something the mundane hacker is getting essentially for free.

[Mindfox]

Well, maybe that example isn't the best but I was just curious about the balancing aspects, what would level it out exactly, because an adept can spend 25 bp for adept quality and 3 magic rating then spend his power points for 3 levels of improved ability in cybercombat, hacking and electronic warfare. While a mundane can't even get that skill boost. And 25 bp isn't that expensive for virtually 9 ratings of skills, which would convert to 36 bp or 30 for a skill group. And to boot it would only get cheaper the higher the magic rating up to 5, at which point would be 20 ratings of skill for 45 bp as opposed to 80. I believe the math is right. I am running a game currently, with a group of hardcore min maxers(it's only a matter of time before they find this out), its just that it would be easier for me if there was a reason this didn't work, instead of me saying no I don't like your character, then I hear 10 minutes of rules lawyering. I just don't like the idea of an adept in hot sim using magic to max his matrix abilities.

[Mr.Platinum]

So in the long run , wich would be better a reguluar hacker or the adept?

[Jaid]

the adept would probably be better in the long run. but you may very well be looking at extremely long run kind of situations.

anyways, i believe the (slight) limitation on the adept powers is that they are limited to adding half of their actual skill rating.

so, they need to put the skill at 6 if they want to get the three point benefit, which means no skill groups.

or, they can just get the skill at 4 by group, and take improved ability 2. in which case, they have a whopping 6 in the skill... as compared to the hacker who also has 6. and probably has no problem getting some basic cyber (control rig for drones, maybe a datajack, implanted commlink, and so on).

[mfb]

so, i'm a buddy's place, and he has SR4, and i'm reading through it. i have the following comments to make: AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAAAAAAH! WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY PRECIOUS GAME!?

IA: hacking skills for .25/level? no IA: vehicle skills? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Glyph]

You're just mad because they took out the catgirls. :D

As far as the unbalancing aspects of adept hackers, they do get a cheap ability boost. But that's only if you don't heed the last two sentences under the description of the Adept Quality:

[RunnerPaul]

[mfb]

[Critias]

It's amazing. Right there in the descriptor for "Be an Adept," they acknowledge they underpriced it (some folks may recall several napalm-filled threads, months and months ago, wherein many of us expressed a concern they would do exactly that).

You've gotta give 'em points for truth in advertising, at least. They're up front about their insane point costs.

[Glyph]

[Darkness]

[Lagomorph]

One thing that would seperate a VR hacker from an AR adept hacker is the Extended test. Most extended tests are gobs faster for VR than AR, iirc an example is probing a target node for weakness has an interval of 1 hour in VR and 1 day in AR. So while an adept may do it in one roll, and a hacker in 4, the hacker is done in 4 hours, and the adept would be done in 24.

[Clyde]

There's also the skill cap. An adept hacker is going to top out at 9 dice. While that's *awesome* it's also an average of 1 hit more than a regular hacker. The guy won't fail regular type tasks, but hard systems will still be hard. And this guy will have dropped 30 or 40 points getting this thing. Adding in the mundane skill groups at 40 points each, plus the requisite 200 on attributes and you've got precious little room to do anything else. This is just another case of the hyperspecialized character - great at one thing, probably dead if he tries anything else.

As to the cost for the "Adept" quality - remember that you have to buy up your magic rating in order for it to mean much more than a few bonus dice. It is NOT cheap to play an adept - it's a minimum 25 point investment to be worth anything at all. You could get 125,000 :nuyen: worth of cyberware and gear for that. You could get two Connection 5/Loyalty 5 contacts for that and still have points left over to buy Wired 1 and a Reaction Enhancer (more than you need for most opponents). Think about it - bad at being an adept is the same cost as pretty awesome in lots of other ways.

[SunJester]

This brings up a question that I have had as I have been reading through the rules. The assumption that I am getting from the responses here is that the adept hacker is limited to AR. Why?

Can't an adept hacker with a commlink, simsense rig, and a set of trodes go full hot sim VR and get all of the benefits that a hacker gets?

Maybe I am just missing it in the rules, but I can't find any benefit for a hacker having invasive cyberware for hacking. Even a nonadept should save their essence for something more important. What am I missing?

[Darkness]

Actually, you are right, SunJester. There is nothing what stops you, to do just that. :)

[Cheops]

At SunJester:

You're right that Adepts could go VR and still get all the benefits a normal hacker does. No where in the rules does it say an adept or magician for that matter can't use their powers in VR.

Also, no where in the rules or errata does it actually say that Adepts are limited to half their skill in IA. It does say you cannot exceed the base skill rating in extra IA dice and it also says that IA dice don't count as skill enhancement which makes them exempt from the rule in the Skills section.

As far as adepts being better hackers than regular hackers I'd have to disagree. The mundane hacker starts off better. However, where the adept hacker really shines is in being a MacGuyver. Adepts can sling code and build stuff like no ones business whereas mundanes can't. They get especially sick if you get 4 or 5 magic and then spend a point to get 0.75 Bio and 0.5 Cyber. That gets you Skillwires 3 Alpha, Cerebral Booster 2, and some other Bio toy to play with.

[Jaid]

hmmm... think i may have been thinking of the german errata or something about the skill cap.

or at least, i seem to recall hearing the german errata included improved ability being a bonus to the skill, and limited to half as much as the skill rating itself.

of course, i could be wrong, i suppose.

[Darkness]

It is in the german errata, and i still wait for an english translation on this btw.

But yeah, IA now directly augments the skill, and isn't just a bonus anymore and thus falls under the skill-cap, according to the german errata at least.

[Mindfox]

Alright I guess my first post got people thinking on AR adepts but after I implied just a skill boost adept, who would also go into VR. So I think to measure it out like this would be best.

Skill boost- an adept can spend 25 bp for adept quality and 3 magic rating then spend his power points for 3 levels of improved ability in cybercombat, hacking, electronic warfare and 3 in 1 more skill, that’s 12 ratings of skill bonuses for only 25 Bp costing 2.08 each, while it would normally cost 48 Bp for that amount of skill, not that skill boost can even be obtained through other means.

Skill- cost are the after that for both adept and mundane, they can mirror each other.

Cyberware-Adepts can get implants, but reduce their magic, but most people wouldn't want that.
Mundanes don't have to worry about that, and implants seem to be the point people use to say mundane get that extra edge with. Internal commlinks are nice, but unneeded, that’s a piece of gear you can't destroy or plant on someone else while on mid-run if they track your datatrail. There are no other matrix intended implants, so you would be then using things mainly for meat body activities. So he can take body, strength, and killing increasing implants, but there’s no additional edge he gets for the matrix.

Healing- It is harder or a adept to be healed, by -2. Though anyone with implants suffers a -1 for every 2 loss of essence.

VR- they both still get the +2 bonus for actions while hot, which they can both do.

Long run- Mundane can get more implants, better programs, skills or gear.
Adepts can do any of those at no extra cost (aside from implants), also if he so chooses can increase his magic, and get a variety of things, or more skill boost

They mirror themselves in choices and costs after that. So ultimately a mundane hacker can get a lot of cyberware and bioware that an adept can't, though this copious amount of implants don't do much for him when he is hacking.

At this point after fully reading it, I am no longer worried about technomancers, as they have there own problems short game, but are great mid and long game.

I am only looking for help balancing, I don't want to make an overpowered character, I fear people using them in my games, or the long argurement of why he can't. Though I think I found something that might help, do adept powers leave a trail on astral? If so do skill boost do? And further more, if all yes, would the signature be where the adept's meat body was sitting, or with the virtual datatrail?

Thanks

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[PlatonicPimp]

Since essentially every peice of gear that a hacker needs is essence free (at least until augmentation comes out, where there is sure to be some fun hacker gear), the only difference build wise between a hacker and a computer adept is the improved ability. The Adept can get improved ability in each computer skill. There is nothing the hacker can do here that the adept can't do. Heck, even a control rig and a datajack would only set the adept back 1 magic point, an expendature well worth it since these are abilities he cannot get as an adept power.

This means that you can take any hacker build you have, add add improved ability to all the hacker skills, and throw around and extra 2 to 3 dice on all computer tests. The adept clearly wins here.

This, in my humble opinion, is what Fastjack is.


If this seems overpowered to you, as it does to me, I suggest raising the cost of improved ability for computer skills to .5 per level. I am considering raising all skill costs to .5 per level, anyway, because the way I run SR non combat skills are as or more important than combat ones (though it is too late to change things for the adept in the party, seeing as how she'd throw a hissy fit if I took away her bonus dice, and she's my wife so she controlls my sex access.)

[Lagomorph]

If you're looking for a way to shut down people for making an adept hacker, you can use the reasoning that since All other adept abilities are placed in the realworld, that there skill boosts would also only work in the real world. In short, magic doesn't or shouldn't work over the matrix. So he could get the bonuses using AR, but not in VR.

[nick012000]

[PlatonicPimp]

Actually, he can have improved ability (hacking) at 4, since adept powers are limited by teh skill cap. See the new errata on the fanpro site.
But 4 dice is nothing to sneeze at.